Would you still vote for Brexit?

[chopps]

That's fascinating micklupulo. I read a quote doing the rounds recently and it reminded me of that :

“The best way to take control over a people and control them utterly is to take a little of their freedom at a time, to erode rights by a thousand tiny and almost imperceptible reductions. In this way, the people will not see those rights and freedoms being removed until past the point at which these changes cannot be reversed. -Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf”

That quote turned out to be a total fabrication and was not from Hitler at all. Nobody knows where it came from. But I believed it to begin with.
https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-f...ing-people-and-eroding-freedoms-idUSKBN22X1W5
Digging a bit deeper re Monnet, it looks like his quote is also very likely to be filed under fiction.
https://fullfact.org/europe/jean-monnet-quote/

 

[kelper]

EU membership cost each of us about £128 a year or less. Our net contributions amounted to just 1% of total government spending.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/gove...les/theukcontributiontotheeubudget/2017-10-31
In the next 7 years, we will still have to pay £20 billion to the EU (net) but this is an estimate.

https://www.bruegel.org/2019/12/how-much-will-the-uk-contribute-to-the-next-seven-year-eu-budget/

 

[An Ankoù]

Not joking at all. Macron also doesn't realise yet that he's heading for zero fishing rights. There seems be be a misconception that the EU is the only place we buy food and the prices will be hiked. Let's not forget the tariffs put on non EU food. Our food prices call fall dramatically and hopefully we will learn not to buy EU goods unless necessary. Leaving on a WTO will be the start of a stronger UK.

I posted this earlier. The red bit is the UK Economic Excusion Zone. It reaches down past the Cherbourg peninsula because of the Channel Islands, I suppose.
That being the case, why hasn't Macron got any fishing rights? The blue and the green areas have nothing to do with the UK. Who is the UK going to sell the 75% of it's catch to that it currently sells to the EU, if Macron and his merry lads decide not to buy it? I never managed to get to the bottom of this. Is it because the answer is embarrassing?
Where will we buy fresh food from if not a near supplier? Are we to fly it in from the Pacific or the USA? Isn't there a climate issue at the moment? Why will tariffs suddenly disappear under WTO trading rules? Isn't it those very rules that make the tariffs necessary?
I agree that the UK would prosper if we learnt to become self sufficient and self-dependent. that would be a prize that would make Brexit worthwhile, I think. But in order to do that we'd be more like Cuba in latter part of the 20th century.
Now the deed is done, the UK needs to be positive and make it work as best they can, but pipe dreams don't help a bit.

 

[MickDundee]

EU membership cost each of us about £128 a year or less. Our net contributions amounted to just 1% of total government spending.

I’ve tried to stay out of this thread, but this is spot on. The “billions” we give to the EU is always quotes by the Leave side gross. In actual fact if you factor in the money that the Public and Private sectors in the U.K. get back then the contribution is not significant. The figures I saw were lower than yours at £117 per person per year as an average between 2014-2018.

And from completely anecdotal evidence from my time working in a university Research Finance department the number of EU funded research grants in the 2-3 years following the Brexit vote were reducing significantly (in number, size and duration) which means that the figure may well have been much lower previously.

I think some might be in for a shock when they realise that £117 per person per year doesn’t really pay for much, and at least initially I would imagine a lot of this will be going towards offsetting trading tariffs etc whilst we get trade deals done.

 

[kelper]

my figures included EU research grants......

 

[Binkei Huckaback]

Most definitely still vote for Brexit. With the EU so scared that we won't fall for their "level playing field" just shows how much they know they'll struggle to be competitive against the UK.

I'm struggling to think what we'll be competitive in. And how we'll recoup all the money this is costing the UK tax payer.

 

[Binkei Huckaback]

Oh, and anyone who believes Johnson is going to get the best deal is delusional. I happened to see him walk out to give a press conference with Ursula von der Leyen the other day. It was like watching a child. She had to tell him to keep his distance amd when to take his mask off.

The man is a discrace. For one of the first times in my life I am genuinely embarressed and ashamed to be British.

 

[Appleyard]

View attachment 37527
I posted this earlier. The red bit is the UK Economic Excusion Zone. It reaches down past the Cherbourg peninsula because of the Channel Islands, I suppose.
That being the case, why hasn't Macron got any fishing rights? The blue and the green areas have nothing to do with the UK.
Now the deed is done, the UK needs to be positive and make it work as best they can, but pipe dreams don't help a bit.

"Exclusive Economic Zone"

The eu, which includes Mr Macron, hasn't any fishing rights because it's our EEZ (the same works in reverse; we won't have "fishing rights" in their EEZ (blue)). However, we will have them in the green areas (Faroes, Norway). Note the eu needs to negotiate fishing access and quantities taken yearly with these latter areas too.

 

[Appleyard]

I'm struggling to think what we'll be competitive in. And how we'll recoup all the money this is costing the UK tax payer.

How much precisely is it costing the UK taxpayer, as a matter of interest, and what are these costs??

 

[kelper]

The government has spent £4.4 billion on Brexit preparations. The cost of EU Exit preparations - National Audit Office (NAO) Press release

 

[TonyT]

I doubt anyone who did vote to leave will agree.

I didn't vote but if we could vote today I would vote leave, I don't care if it's 2 weeks or two months the bottom line is we will no longer be told what to do by people in another country, I was listening to 5 live earlier and they are crapping themselves they know if we leave others will follow (not my words listen to the podcast) so they are making it as difficult as possible to try to put off any other country following us, it's all a game and I think after extra time we will win.
.

But that’s one of the big leaver myths. We aren’t told what to do by people in another country. If you have a trade agreement between two or more countries, you have to abide by a given set of rules for the agreement to work. For the benefit of all involved. And that applies to any countries, in or out of the EU. Each country still runs its own affairs. No country has ever told us, for example, how old people have to be to get a driving licence, vote, join the army and so on. if I want to build an extension on my house, I have to get permission from the local authority, not Brussels. If I get caught speeding, I get dealt with by British police under British road traffic law, and ultimately in a British court. The list is endless.

 

[MickDundee]

But that’s one of the big leaver myths. We aren’t told what to do by people in another country. If you have a trade agreement between two or more countries, you have to abide by a given set of rules for the agreement to work. For the benefit of all involved. And that applies to any countries, in or out of the EU. Each country still runs its own affairs. No country has ever told us, for example, how old people have to be to get a driving licence, vote, join the army and so on. if I want to build an extension on my house, I have to get permission from the local authority, not Brussels. If I get caught speeding, I get dealt with by British police under British road traffic law, and ultimately in a British court. The list is endless.

But what about all the laws that have been forced upon us against our will?
https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/n...ave-been-forced-on-us-against-our-will/22/01/

 

[Justin Dean]

But that’s one of the big leaver myths. We aren’t told what to do by people in another country. If you have a trade agreement between two or more countries, you have to abide by a given set of rules for the agreement to work. For the benefit of all involved. And that applies to any countries, in or out of the EU. Each country still runs its own affairs. No country has ever told us, for example, how old people have to be to get a driving licence, vote, join the army and so on. if I want to build an extension on my house, I have to get permission from the local authority, not Brussels. If I get caught speeding, I get dealt with by British police under British road traffic law, and ultimately in a British court. The list is endless.

But at what price do you pay for a trade deal. That is the rub, when is it right when is it wrong. economically it make sense, but as a sovereign state it does not. I still believe a some sort of trade deal will be achieved, it would not be surprising. Even if that is no deal then a a trade deal. Trade is in the interest of the EU just as much as the UK. The worry is the EU decide to not have a deal and do a political game of its you not me etc....political charlatans abound.

 

[An Ankoù]

But what about all the laws that have been forced upon us against our will?

https://www.europeanlawmonitor.org/.../who-is-involved-in-making-european-laws.htmlEnforced on us by whom? The UK was part of the law-making body and the European Council has to ratify the proposals of the Parliament or not. We contributed to the making of these laws. Your question doesn't make sense. Or at least, I haven't made any sense of it.

 

[micklupulo]

But that’s one of the big leaver myths. We aren’t told what to do by people in another country. If you have a trade agreement between two or more countries, you have to abide by a given set of rules for the agreement to work. For the benefit of all involved. And that applies to any countries, in or out of the EU. Each country still runs its own affairs. No country has ever told us, for example, how old people have to be to get a driving licence, vote, join the army and so on. if I want to build an extension on my house, I have to get permission from the local authority, not Brussels. If I get caught speeding, I get dealt with by British police under British road traffic law, and ultimately in a British court. The list is endless.

It's not a myth.Many thousands of EU laws have been enacted in Britain via statutory instrument which do not go through Parliament. Some of these are connected to trade but by no means all. We could argue all day about the desirability of any particular one but that's not the point. The principal point is the degree of accountability the MPs we either retain or chuck out every few years actually have to us all. One of the problems we have is that the art of full government not to mention negotiating trade deals has been lost.

 

[MickDundee]

https://www.europeanlawmonitor.org/.../who-is-involved-in-making-european-laws.htmlEnforced on us by whom? The UK was part of the law-making body and the European Council has to ratify the proposals of the Parliament or not. We contributed to the making of these laws. Your question doesn't make sense. Or at least, I haven't made any sense of it.

I take it you didn’t read the article I linked

 

[Falco]

I take it you didn’t read the article I linked

I did and you were being ironic with your statement:

But what about all the laws that have been forced upon us against our will?

 

[Falco]

It’s been articulated by others with a greater intellect than mine but it's been said that Brexit can be compared to a living virus. We are where we are because the British Conservative and Unionist Party has been at war with itself over Europe for at least 40 years, maybe more.

During this time and in cahoots with the landed wealthy, the compliant UK Right-Wing media (mostly owned by Non-Dom tax-exiled wealthy individuals such as Murdoch, the Barclay brothers and Viscount Rothermere), the Conservative Party has allowed this virus to replicate and spread within itself and eventually infecting the whole country.

This malady has consumed the careers of Thatcher, Major and latterly the coward Cameron who in his folly decided he was going to settle the Europe issue in his Party once and for all by having an In-Out referendum. The spread of lies, half-truths and complete fabrications (remember the EU wants to ban bendy bananas twaddle originally written by our current Prime Minister when he was a hack on the Daily Telegraph??) by our Conservative supporting media outlets over the last 40 odd years constantly briefing against EU membership has resulted in an electorate, and I’m including myself here despite voting to Remain, who didn’t really understand how the EU worked and thus a majority were persuaded to vote against continued membership by a narrow margin.

As we all know this has failed to quell the Eurosceptic elements of the Tory party and bitterly divided the country. Classic example of the "divide and rule" philosophy that our betters have been pursuing for millenia. Just look at as all on here, can't agree on anything

Where we go from here is anyone’s guess, but for the next few years with or without a “deal”, combined with fighting the real virus Covid, it’s going to be a bumpy ride for all of us living in the UK.

 

[kelper]

Many thousands of EU laws have been enacted in Britain via statutory instrument which do not go through Parliament.

FALSE SI's are debated in the Commons AND Lords (by committees) and approved before coming into law.

"Statutory Instruments can be laid by either the negative or affirmative resolution procedure. If a Statutory Instrument is laid as a negative instrument then it is presented to Parliament and if no member votes to annul it in the following 40 days then it becomes law. If a Statutory Instrument is laid as an affirmative instrument then a Committee in each of the House of Lords and Commons must debate and approve it before it becomes law. Committees however, are generally only made up of 15 members of Parliament in comparison to primary legislation which is debated on the floor of the House of Commons."

 

[micklupulo]

FALSE SI's are debated in the Commons AND Lords (by committees) and approved before coming into law.

"Statutory Instruments can be laid by either the negative or affirmative resolution procedure. If a Statutory Instrument is laid as a negative instrument then it is presented to Parliament and if no member votes to annul it in the following 40 days then it becomes law. If a Statutory Instrument is laid as an affirmative instrument then a Committee in each of the House of Lords and Commons must debate and approve it before it becomes law. Committees however, are generally only made up of 15 members of Parliament in comparison to primary legislation which is debated on the floor of the House of Commons."

FALSE SI's are debated in the Commons AND Lords (by committees) and approved before coming into law.

"Statutory Instruments can be laid by either the negative or affirmative resolution procedure. If a Statutory Instrument is laid as a negative instrument then it is presented to Parliament and if no member votes to annul it in the following 40 days then it becomes law. If a Statutory Instrument is laid as an affirmative instrument then a Committee in each of the House of Lords and Commons must debate and approve it before it becomes law. Committees however, are generally only made up of 15 members of Parliament in comparison to primary legislation which is debated on the floor of the House of Commons."

I was expressing things briefly and trying to avoid getting into a constitutional law essay and yes of course SIs go before a committee but do not go through Parliament in the way most people understand that by e.g. involving open debate on the floor and the consequent publicity. Putting this in current jargon the procedure is hardly "transparent".