Why does this have to be so confusing!?

[Sadfield]

it isn't to Brungard's approval does that mean it has to be your approval?
Get a grip. Everything doesn't have to be done your way.

Finally your are correct on the subject, but the chloride level does have to be high to achieve what the OP wants.

Email Brungard? Grow up.

 

[Monkhouse]

This is all great

 

[Sadfield]

It was only about 12g of dark chocolate. I actually chose green and blacks 90% as it had the least fat in it

That'll kill the head. I've read similar problems from people using chocolate in its purest form, nibs, which naturally contain some oils.

 

[Monkhouse]

That'll kill the head. I've read similar problems from people using chocolate in its purest form, nibs, which naturally contain some oils.

Noted From now on I’ll just stick to choc malt if wanting chocolate flavour.

 

[foxy]

Finally your are correct on the subject, but the chloride level does have to be high to achieve what the OP wants.

Email Brungard? Grow up.

Well he isn't getting satisfaction here. Palmer will answer emails too. Grow up! I cant wait to get old and start posting a load of crap on brewing forums. Must be a great hoot.

 

[Sadfield]

Noted From now on I’ll just stick to choc malt if wanting chocolate flavour.

Foam is all about balancing positives and negatives. At the point of brewing an unadulterated stout with excellent head retention, then there's scope to introduce other ingredients such as cacao nibs, coconut etc. It can be done, but the base beer needs to be spot on.

 

[Manxnorton]

I’ve been trying to get my head around some very basic water chemistry now for weeks to no avail.
The kind people on this forum have offered their advice which although often conflicting is still nice to hear but can end up more confusing. The links people have thrown my way have also been nice to read through but make me more overwhelmed by it all lol.
I live in a soft water area- I’ve heard that stouts favour a hard water profile so I thought this must be simple to fix.
Better head retention and better mouthfeel on my stouts is what I’m after.
Head over to brewers friend to use their calculator.
Input my water source mineral levels etc from water report- great, fine done that.
Choose Dublin dry stout profile target, yep great.
Then this is what I get- (see pictures)
Exactly how does this help me? Where does it say what I need to add to change my water that I use into more of a Dublin stout water profile?
Am I being thick here or what?

haha the minute you mentioned water chemistry my brain went into shut doiwn!
it would be hard enough if my brain was healthy to fathom it. but alas it’s damaged!!
but took months n months with help from Steve and the gang.
even then i got the dreaded ‘skill Fade’ if i dint practice.
now i have a “Brian’s’ guide (fools guide ) to reference everytime. and my brewing software has the profiles locked lol
you’ll get there.
it’s like being at school and the teacher starts to go on chemisty..within mins my head went pete tong

 

[matt76]

Yeah to end up with 25l in the fv. The 39l accounts for grain absorption, boil off, boiler loss, hop absorption, even wort lost in the hoses and pump.
I know there’s an argument for steeping dark grains separately but I’ll be honest I’d rather guide my dad into my mum than fart about doing that.
I don’t think I’m really going to even worry too much about the dark grains affecting the mash ph either if I’m totally honest- my aim for water additions is only to see if it makes a marked improvement to darker beers.
My water atm is fantastic for amber beers but with stouts I just feel it could do with slightly more head retention especially.
I don’t want to go full geek into water treatment like allot of ppl on here, each to their own.
That said here’s the grist of the stout I’ve just made:
Crisp Caramalt (1044 grams)
BESTMALZ Pilsner (5822 grams)
Weyermann® Carafa Special® Type 3 (224 grams)
Chocolate Wheat Malt (224 grams)
Crisp Dark Crystal Malt (372 grams)

As @Sadfield has said, the reason for your poor head retention may lie elsewhere but nevertheless here are some ideas:

1. I recommend reading at least this short section of Strange Steve's guide to water treatment as it outlines exactly what you're trying to do - this link then scroll down to the section Putting it all together - Brewing a stout with low alkalinity water

2. Treat your water with Campden tablets if you aren't already to remove chlorine/chloramine.

3. In Brewer's Friend you can create and save water profiles - it's worth doing this for both your source water at home, and your target water profile. For the latter I have assumed we're using Strange Steve's stout profile as a target. In the BF water calculator scroll down to Source Water and click Configure to create & save water profiles (or this link might work)

4. Create your recipe as normal in BF. You need this to get the grist in your water calculator (it's a pain to enter manually in the calculator). In the Water Chemistry section of your recipe click the green Edit button under Water Calculator - the water calculator will open in a new window.

5. In the water calculator under Source Water select your home water profile created at step 3 advice. Scroll down to Target Water Selection and select the target water profile also created at step 3.

6. Still in the Target Water Selection section, review the target water profile values down, along with the Actual and Delta values shown. Note that in the Delta section you probably have lots of reds indicating you're some way off your target profile. When we start adding minerals below you'll need to scroll back up to these Deltas and use a bit of trial and error to get your salt additions right.

7. Now scroll down to Salt Additions. Have a play adding different amounts of Baking Soda to get the HCO3 Delta close to zero. You don't need to be too precise, getting it within +/- 10ppm is good enough so whole, half of maybe quarter gram amounts are close enough depending on the accuracy of your scales.

8. Repeat step 7, this time adding gypsum to reduce the SO4- ("sulphate") Delta close to zero.

9. Repeat step 7 again adding Calcium Chloride (dihydrate) to reduce the Cl- ("chloride") Delta close to zero.

10. Note that gypsum and calcium chloride both contain calcium. So as you add these you're also bringing your calcium levels up to roughly where you want to be.

11. When I made my calculation I was able to get HCO3, SO4 and Cl very close to the target. Calcium (Ca) was a touch low, about 10ppm off the target at about 140ppm instead of 150ppm but I'd be happy enough with this. I'm also happy with the mash pH.

N.B. In my calculation the baking soda addition results in sodium ions (Na) being raised to about 50ppm. I simply don't know if this is ok or not so you'll need to research, and potentially find another salt to add to get your HCO3 up.

12. With regard to the target profile - I think it was John Palmer I've heard say water additions are like seasoning, like adding salt & pepper etc while you're cooking. It is true that you might want to alter the target depending if you're making sweet stout, dry stout, American stout (more hoppy), and also depending on personal taste.

13. Last step, click Save/Update on your water calc! Close or and go back to your recipe. Under the Water Chemistry section of the recipe, under Water Calculator click Update Recipe to bring through the results of your calc. Scroll up a little to Other Ingredients and you should see your additions listed.

14. I can share my recipe and water calc with you, but try it for yourself and see how you get on.

 

[Monkhouse]

As @Sadfield has said, the reason for your poor head retention may lie elsewhere but nevertheless here are some ideas:

1. I recommend reading at least this short section of Strange Steve's guide to water treatment as it outlines exactly what you're trying to do - this link then scroll down to the section Putting it all together - Brewing a stout with low alkalinity water

2. Treat your water with Campden tablets if you aren't already to remove chlorine/chloramine.

3. In Brewer's Friend you can create and save water profiles - it's worth doing this for both your source water at home, and your target water profile. For the latter I have assumed we're using Strange Steve's stout profile as a target. In the BF water calculator scroll down to Source Water and click Configure to create & save water profiles (or this link might work)

4. Create your recipe as normal in BF. You need this to get the grist in your water calculator (it's a pain to enter manually in the calculator). In the Water Chemistry section of your recipe click the green Edit button under Water Calculator - the water calculator will open in a new window.

5. In the water calculator under Source Water select your home water profile created at step 3 advice. Scroll down to Target Water Selection and select the target water profile also created at step 3.

6. Still in the Target Water Selection section, review the target water profile values down, along with the Actual and Delta values shown. Note that in the Delta section you probably have lots of reds indicating you're some way off your target profile. When we start adding minerals below you'll need to scroll back up to these Deltas and use a bit of trial and error to get your salt additions right.

7. Now scroll down to Salt Additions. Have a play adding different amounts of Baking Soda to get the HCO3 Delta close to zero. You don't need to be too precise, getting it within +/- 10ppm is good enough so whole, half of maybe quarter gram amounts are close enough depending on the accuracy of your scales.

8. Repeat step 7, this time adding gypsum to reduce the SO4- ("sulphate") Delta close to zero.

9. Repeat step 7 again adding Calcium Chloride (dihydrate) to reduce the Cl- ("chloride") Delta close to zero.

10. Note that gypsum and calcium chloride both contain calcium. So as you add these you're also bringing your calcium levels up to roughly where you want to be.

11. When I made my calculation I was able to get HCO3, SO4 and Cl very close to the target. Calcium (Ca) was a touch low, about 10ppm off the target at about 140ppm instead of 150ppm but I'd be happy enough with this. I'm also happy with the mash pH.

N.B. In my calculation the baking soda addition results in sodium ions (Na) being raised to about 50ppm. I simply don't know if this is ok or not so you'll need to research, and potentially find another salt to add to get your HCO3 up.

12. With regard to the target profile - I think it was John Palmer I've heard say water additions are like seasoning, like adding salt & pepper etc while you're cooking. It is true that you might want to alter the target depending if you're making sweet stout, dry stout, American stout (more hoppy), and also depending on personal taste.

13. Last step, click Save/Update on your water calc! Close or and go back to your recipe. Under the Water Chemistry section of the recipe, under Water Calculator click Update Recipe to bring through the results of your calc. Scroll up a little to Other Ingredients and you should see your additions listed.

14. I can share my recipe and water calc with you, but try it for yourself and see how you get on.

Thanks so much! I’ve had so much help on this thread from people i really appreciate it all.
I’ll take a look at this definitely later once I get a bit of time, cheers

 

[Monkhouse]

N.B. In my calculation the baking soda addition results in sodium ions (Na) being raised to about 50ppm. I simply don't know if this is ok or not so you'll need to research, and potentially find another salt to add to get your HCO3 up.

Isn’t brewers friend supposed to point out any additions/levels that are too high?
Would this cause it to taste salty?

 

[Sadfield]

The only salty tasting beer I've ever drunk was a Gose and that has 4-5 times that level of sodium. This is what Murphy's say. Although, they are most likely wrong.

https://www.murphyandson.co.uk/a-pinch-of-salt-sodium-in-beer-and-brewing/

 

[Mash Monster]

Isn’t brewers friend supposed to point out any additions/levels that are too high?
Would this cause it to taste salty?

I’m not sure about Brewers friend but if you overdo the salt in Brewfather you get a warning of Too much Chloride

 

[matt76]

Isn’t brewers friend supposed to point out any additions/levels that are too high?
Would this cause it to taste salty?

Yeah, scroll down in the calculator to Overall Water Report and you'll see it.

In my calc it still says the sodium level is ok. On that basis is probably try brewing like this, though I might be tempted to see how much table salt would be needed to achieve the same levels, just to try and gauge it.

 

[matt76]

Thanks so much! I’ve had so much help on this thread from people i really appreciate it all.
I’ll take a look at this definitely later once I get a bit of time, cheers

No worries

 

[Pennine]

The only salty tasting beer I've ever drunk was a Gose and that has 4-5 times that level of sodium. This is what Murphy's say. Although, they are most likely wrong.

View attachment 73733

https://www.murphyandson.co.uk/a-pinch-of-salt-sodium-in-beer-and-brewing/

It's a very easy thing to try out at home, just sprinkle a bit of salt in a beer. If you like it you can always get more sophisticated and measure it. I am not a big fan of sodium additions of any sort.

 

[Sadfield]

I am not a big fan of sodium additions of any sort.

Fair enough, although there does appear to be an irrational fear of minerals within homebrewing. Tap water can legally have upto 200 ppm of sodium and 250ppm of chloride.

For context, milk contains levels way in excess of what any of these calculators are predicting.

Calcium - 124mg in 100m/l - 1240 ppm
Magnesium - 110 ppm
Sodium - 430 ppm
Chloride - 920 ppm

https://milk.co.uk/nutritional-composition-of-dairy/milk/

 

[Monkhouse]

Everything I’ve learnt so far regarding my soft tap water and trying to target a water which is better suited to a stout is that I need to add bicarbonate of soda to my water to increase alkalinity.
So then how come the Brewfather app doesn’t suggest adding any? Is it something I’m doing wrong? Strange Steve’s calc suggests 8.4g bicarbonate soda, both apps ask for grist etc so how come they are so different?

 

[foxy]

Everything I’ve learnt so far regarding my soft tap water and trying to target a water which is better suited to a stout is that I need to add bicarbonate of soda to my water to increase alkalinity.
So then how come the Brewfather app doesn’t suggest adding any? Is it something I’m doing wrong? Strange Steve’s calc suggests 8.4g bicarbonate soda, both apps ask for grist etc so how come they are so different?

If you are adding your roast barley to the mash you are making the mash water more acid so the bi carb is adding alkalinity to bring the pH back up. Why you are getting two different suggestions is probably user error. Also you are not making a dry stout, so forget the Dublin water profile.

 

[Monkhouse]

I’m guessing user error too
What sort of profile should I be targeting?
My water as it is works great for pale ales- I always get a good head on these and even nice lacing too all the way down the glass. I’m interested in a changing my water to better suit stouts/ dark ales

 

[dcbrookes]

I cant wait to get old and start posting a load of crap on brewing forums. Must be a great hoot.

Your age has not prevented you so far.