Why does this have to be so confusing!?

[Pennine]

If you live in the Pennines, you may be interested to know that Chloramine is NOT used by United Utilities.

Thanks for the info, the pennines we're one of my favorite place to hike and bike when I lived out there. Now I am in the US and they do use chloramines in my local water. I also double carbon filter and one is a cat carbon filter to remove them. I also do this for taste as my water has a feint lake water odour to me which I do not like.

Even with the double filter I still use Campden tabs as insurance.

 

[Slid]

Thanks for the info, the pennines we're one of my favorite place to hike and bike when I lived out there. Now I am in the US and they do use chloramines in my local water. I also double carbon filter and one is a cat carbon filter to remove them. I also do this for taste as my water has a feint lake water odour to me which I do not like.

Even with the double filter I still use Campden tabs as insurance.

Yeah! 5,000 miles out on my great advice. Bad miss, even by my standards!
Chloramine is much more persistent than Chlorine, which is why it is used on long pipes (from Treatment Works to tap) or low pressure networks in the flatlands. Sodium Metabisulphite is indeed the thing to use to get rid of Chloramine.
The lake water smell could be geosimin, which is, literally "the smell of the earth" - another common cause of discontent with water supplies.

 

[Monkhouse]

Can anyone tell me how to read this water calculation on Brewfather? The target water profile is high in alkalinity and my source water is low. So how come it doesn’t calculate that I need to add bicarbonate? Isn’t that the obvious way to increase alkalinity? Or is it adding alkalinity another way?
Also it’s stating that the sulphate/chloride ratio is dry or bitter- but there’s no way of altering this to my preference like I can on the brewers friend calculator- am I missing something?

 

[Mash Monster]

I’m not really sure on this one it may be that your PH is on the high side and I think Brewfather prioritises PH over everything ( But I may be wrong)
Try adding Chalk into the equation I think that will help

 

[Pennine]

Alkalinity is irrelevant as long as your mash pH is where it needs to be. You are really only trying to match Ca, sulfate, chloride and Na levels not carbonates.

Seems about right, my water is similar to yours and there is little need for acids with dark beers.

 

[Mash Monster]

This is what I managed to get using RO water as the source

 

[Monkhouse]

Alkalinity is irrelevant as long as your mash pH is where it needs to be. You are really only trying to match Ca, sulfate, chloride and Na levels not carbonates.

Seems about right, my water is similar to yours and there is little need for acids with dark beers.

So if your water is similar what do u generally do when brewing stouts? Without salts added does your water produce stouts with crap head retention?

 

[Monkhouse]

This is what I managed to get using RO water as the source

When it states ‘dry or bitter’ Is That because that’s how it should be for the particular target I’ve chosen? Or should I adjust the salts until it says it’s balanced?

 

[Pennine]

So if your water is similar what do u generally do when brewing stouts? Without salts added does your water produce stouts with crap head retention?

I typically use only gypsum and calcium chloride, I would also add some Phosphoric acid as I prefer my mash to be in the 5.4 range but most recommend 5.6 for stouts so you are fine. I have higher bicarbonates than you but not by too much.

Usually stouts that are bottled have mild head retention and in the keg they are great.

 

[Sadfield]

What's your head retention like in stouts that only contain malt and hops? No syrup, chocolate, vanilla, coffee etc.

Bittering hops and roasted grains are both foam positive, so should be enough to ensure good foam, regardless of the water used. I think your problems may be the extra ingredients.

What mash pHs are you normally getting with your stouts? If they're too low add some bicarbonate in the form of chalk to the mash, if too high add more calcium to your water.

Calcium can be added using Calcium Sulphate or Calcium Chloride. Sulphate enhances hops and bitterness, chloride enhances malt, fullness and sweetness.

It doesn't have to be complicated, using the most complicated online calculators. It can be worked out by brewing, measuring pH, observing the outcome in the finished beer, then adjusting the next batch. Avoid adding variables, in atypical brewing ingredients.

 

[Mash Monster]

When it states ‘dry or bitter’ Is That because that’s how it should be for the particular target I’ve chosen? Or should I adjust the salts until it says it’s balanced?

Correct ‘ dry or bitter ‘ is the target profile But there is no right or wrong here if you want ‘ balanced’ go for it
At the end of the day brew what you like otherwise you might as well drink commercial beer

 

[Monkhouse]

Correct ‘ dry or bitter ‘ is the target profile But there is no right or wrong here if you want ‘ balanced’ go for it
At the end of the day brew what you like otherwise you might as well drink commercial beer

I like to think even without salt additions my beer still tastes better than allot of commercial pesh

 

[Monkhouse]

What's your head retention like in stouts that only contain malt and hops? No syrup, chocolate, vanilla, coffee etc.

Bittering hops and roasted grains are both foam positive, so should be enough to ensure good foam, regardless of the water used. I think your problems may be the extra ingredients.

What mash pHs are you normally getting with your stouts? If they're too low add some bicarbonate in the form of chalk to the mash, if too high add more calcium to your water.

Calcium can be added using Calcium Sulphate or Calcium Chloride. Sulphate enhances hops and bitterness, chloride enhances malt, fullness and sweetness.

It doesn't have to be complicated, using the most complicated online calculators. It can be worked out by brewing, measuring pH, observing the outcome in the finished beer, then adjusting the next batch. Avoid adding variables, in atypical brewing ingredients.

Even my other stouts have suffered these same head retention issues, my first one was the Jon finch oatmeal stout, I’ve also done an imperial stout.
I haven’t got a ph meter- I’ve never tested ph of the mash. My main concern with that would be something else to slow down getting the lid on the mash tun- all the time the mash temp dropping, then having to add the correct salts at that point. I may be over worrying with this!

 

[Sadfield]

Without being able to measure the pH of the mash, I wouldn't overthink water calculations and additions, as you've no accurate way of confirming whether water is your problem or the degree to which any changes work. A bit like trying to hit a precise mash temperature without a thermometer.

 

[Monkhouse]

Can you recommend a cheap ph meter?

 

[Monkhouse]

This is a saison I did a few weeks back, decent head and nice lacing etc- all my pales are like this

 

[Sadfield]

https://amzn.eu/d/eIGvMai
PH meters, cheap or expensive, add another level of complication with the need for calibration. I'd initially get a pack of these. Reliable, quick and accurate enough to identify if you have an issue or not.

Oats can reduce head retention, as can the high abv of a RIS. I'm wondering if the simplicity of the saison and other pales is the secret to their better head retention.

I'd think a simple course of action would be to brew an uncomplicated stout, with a grist of base malt and Roasted Barley and/or chocolate malt. Adding a teaspoon of calcium chloride to the mash and then measuring the pH.

Low pH actually aids head retention, so I'd hold off on increasing bicarbonate until you know what your mash pH is. Calcium on the other hand has many positive effects, and your source water is below what is recommended for most styles.

"Calcium (Ca++)
Calcium is a very important constituent and performs a number of functions:-

• Decreases the pH during mashing and wort boiling, favouring enzyme activity
• Promotes the precipitation of unwanted proteins in the kettle, hop back or whirlpool
• Promotes yeast flocculation at the end of fermentation
• Promotes head retention on beer
• Reacts with oxalate to form an insoluble salt, preventing gushing in beer"

Ionic Composition - Brewing Liquor - Murphy and Son

 

[Monkhouse]

https://amzn.eu/d/eIGvMai
PH meters, cheap or expensive, add another level of complication with the need for calibration. I'd initially get a pack of these. Reliable, quick and accurate enough to identify if you have an issue or not.

Oats can reduce head retention, as can the high abv of a RIS. I'm wondering if the simplicity of the saison and other pales is the secret to their better head retention.

I'd think a simple course of action would be to brew an uncomplicated stout, with a grist of base malt and Roasted Barley and/or chocolate malt. Adding a teaspoon of calcium chloride to the mash and then measuring the pH.

Low pH actually aids head retention, so I'd hold off on increasing bicarbonate until you know what your mash pH is. Calcium on the other hand has many positive effects, and your source water is below what is recommended for most styles.

"Calcium (Ca++)
Calcium is a very important constituent and performs a number of functions:-

• Decreases the pH during mashing and wort boiling, favouring enzyme activity
• Promotes the precipitation of unwanted proteins in the kettle, hop back or whirlpool
• Promotes yeast flocculation at the end of fermentation
• Promotes head retention on beer
• Reacts with oxalate to form an insoluble salt, preventing gushing in beer"

Ionic Composition - Brewing Liquor - Murphy and Son

So adding calcium chloride or calcium sulphate, it doesn’t matter which one?

 

[Monkhouse]

https://amzn.eu/d/eIGvMai
PH meters, cheap or expensive, add another level of complication with the need for calibration. I'd initially get a pack of these. Reliable, quick and accurate enough to identify if you have an issue or not.

Oats can reduce head retention, as can the high abv of a RIS. I'm wondering if the simplicity of the saison and other pales is the secret to their better head retention.

I'd think a simple course of action would be to brew an uncomplicated stout, with a grist of base malt and Roasted Barley and/or chocolate malt. Adding a teaspoon of calcium chloride to the mash and then measuring the pH.

Low pH actually aids head retention, so I'd hold off on increasing bicarbonate until you know what your mash pH is. Calcium on the other hand has many positive effects, and your source water is below what is recommended for most styles.

"Calcium (Ca++)
Calcium is a very important constituent and performs a number of functions:-

• Decreases the pH during mashing and wort boiling, favouring enzyme activity
• Promotes the precipitation of unwanted proteins in the kettle, hop back or whirlpool
• Promotes yeast flocculation at the end of fermentation
• Promotes head retention on beer
• Reacts with oxalate to form an insoluble salt, preventing gushing in beer"

Ionic Composition - Brewing Liquor - Murphy and Son

Great advice btw!

 

[Sadfield]

So adding calcium chloride or calcium sulphate, it doesn’t matter which one?

Not critically, but chloride will enhance the malt character and fullness. Sulphate enhances the perception of dryness and bitterness. Depends on what you prefer in a stout.