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[Leon103]

Where did I say Jims Beerkit was better?
Look, I have no objection to a forum making money, this is a brewing forum with far more other interests other than brewing. I am not bothered by it, it is thanks to what is posted in the snug which brings in the revenue. Provided they the incoming traffic hit on an ad. Becoming a supporting member is icing on the cake for the owner.
Come on here for a bit of banter and a laugh, there are plenty of other forums with a more serious interest in brewing beer.
Which are the best, it depends what one wants from a forum, someone who really wants to learn the brewing craft will drift off. Others will stay, new ones will come in.

You said you went to other forums to learn about brewing. You then said that this place used to have knowledgeable brewers but are now over at Jim's. Not directly saying which is better but it does make out that people hear aren't serious brewers and didn't come across well. There are some brilliant brewers here, national champions etc. Because they about other things perhaps suggests there is a sense of community here.

I was on jims first but made my way here because there was more activity and very little on all grain over there.

When things got a bit funky here and there was a breakaway I also joined the new forum. But they didn't like I was posting here and over there so stayed here. But before leaving I was able to access a mod only forum in which they were slagging off a lot of the members. You will see I don't agree with every action of the mod/admin team on this forum but the rules are there so I must follow if I want to stay..

 

[foxy]

So...I've not used any other brew forums in earnest...do you think there isn't the knowledge base here that's about elsewhere?
I'm not that well informed in brewing..just learning along the way...but all questions seem to get answers..or,keeping it to my level,I've not yet progressed to anything more complicated?

There are other sites that will just talk about brewing and the technical side like Pro brewer there is a lot of information to be gleaned on there, unlikely you will learn anything about curries, bread making and gardening. They seem to shy away from showing their cats or dogs and any discussion about covid, Brexit, Biden or Trump. The other is to look up the Q & A on American Home Brewers where they invite questions to give to guests, the guests being prominent brewers.

 

[strange-steve]

I get the impression my post on page 4 has been misinterpreted. I wasn't being critical of the fact that this forum has an active social side, and certainly not of the members. My issue is entirely with some of the decisions made by certain admin/mods, which apparently wasn't clear so let me restate the main point from my previous post:

"But one other relevant and related point is that it also has a reputation for a lack of free speech with regards to the forum itself. Any attempt at discussing issues with the mods, admin, sponsors etc is quickly shut down, with the given reason often being something dismissive like "there's no point in discussing it". Posts are arbitrarily removed, people are blocked from posting on certain threads, people have been subtly threatened with banning for complaining, some have left because of overly aggressive moderation.

And the fact that we can't even have a reasonable discussion about these things without a dismissive/childish/snarky response leaves some feeling that the admin view the members as entirely expendable."

 

[THBF]

Okay, enough on dissing the admin here. I understand a couple that have issue about that have had their posts deleted, etc. There are always some. This is on page 7 and some are trying to hang the admin and how they do the work of keeping this forum decent for the majority. There are always on all forums at least 4 to 6 that think the rules do not apply to them and they were not pushing the rules, or just being a pain. Everyone has that day or two when it happens, and all mods and admins know that JoeXYZ usually posts in a really decent manner and is helpful and this "some nasty post" is not like him. And then there is the few, pushing and pushing and pushing. They don't like what is happening, and then they fuss when they have a thread moved as some of the post in it puts out of their reach and it is all about how they feel about something.

I have noticed in this thread that there are a few real issues that I have been able to fix (I still have one to check out and fix), and there are those that comment about other brewing forums. I see somewhere between 6 or 8 listed in those links. What do you think makes those make the list? And do you agree with it.
And I can tell you on at least 3 of them, a thread like this happens about once a year or 18 months. I am the Admin on 3 of those listed on those and back up admin on a 4th. I see this same thread with different names on it on at least one of them about 12 -18 months.

I've been a forum head admin since about 2009, and since 2013 on multiple forums. And regardless of the topic, this thread happens. And about the same percentage of member have the same type of admin bad/admin okay and has a difficult VOLUNTARY job. It happens, nothing is new here except the members.

Are there things I'm going to be looking into and see if a few changes can be made - yes. Have some things been done quickly and you were not informed before it happened. Yep. I think so, and that will happen from time to time. And it guaranteed some of the members will not like it and most of them will just click on where ever that forum is on the index of threads and keep on going and visiting with his / her friends.

I see the a couple that have issues and a couple that have PM'd me, and I am considering those.

The ones that have not been complaining, thank you. I really appreciate the good/bad and good posts are greatly appreciated. And believe it or not, even the hassling fussy posts have merit for me to look into. I will not promise to make anyone happy, that is not my job - only you can make yourself happy. But I have been listening.

Hope you're having a good evening, can be with your friends and even if 6 ft apart enjoy a pint. Even if virtually.

And to those that it applies, I hope you have a Happy Valentine's Day.

 

[THBF]

I never noticed mine had gone, or if I got it, I was AWOL for a while, frequenting other forums to learn about brewing.

This I will be checking out.

 

[Covrich]

From my own personal expereince as a moderator trying to play a fair equal moderation in the snug is neigh on impossible.

Earlier in this thread we were accussed of over moderating and shutting down, yet the other day we were accussed of not doing our jobs?

By not doing our jobs was not shutting down a point of view they didn;t agree with whilst members who did actually turned very aggressive and abusive.

Asking us to play political arbiter is not fair. Being asked to play facists and shut down view points people do not agree with then claim free speech is being impeeded?

I actually hardly delete anything unless it gets very personal and abusive which it has when people are not able to ignore or debate someone..

Make your mind up! But personally I am not playing arbiter to the wacky right wing views or equally disturbing left wing ones which get posted here.

 

[foxy]

From my own personal expereince as a moderator trying to play a fair equal moderation in the snug is neigh on impossible.

Earlier in this thread we were accussed of over moderating and shutting down, yet the other day we were accussed of not doing our jobs?

By not doing our jobs was not shutting down a point of view they didn;t agree with whilst members who did actually turned very aggressive and abusive.

Asking us to play political arbiter is not fair. Being asked to play facists and shut down view points people do not agree with then claim free speech is being impeeded?

I actually hardly delete anything unless it gets very personal and abusive which it has when people are not able to ignore or debate someone..

Make your mind up! But personally I am not playing arbiter to the wacky right wing views or equally disturbing left wing ones which get posted here.

It doesn't bother me, it can be annoying not having a right of reply, most forums are run the same way. What a lot of folk don't take into consideration it is the internet, not a be all end all. Move on, a moderators job is never easy.

 

[An Ankoù]

From my own personal expereince as a moderator trying to play a fair equal moderation in the snug is neigh on impossible.

You're spot on @Covrich. The moderator's job is a poisoned chalice and a lose/lose situation with very little thanks when things go right. I wouldn't do it. :hat:
I've only had one thread closed to me and I can't complain as I find it difficult to keep my big gob shut when it comes to Brexit and Conservatives.
What I would have appreciated though is a PM saying something like "You've been excluded from this thread because your contributions are becoming too high maintenance" or "because you've posted disrespectful remarks against Covrich" "Don't argue the issue because our decision is final".
I'll be glad when this lot is sorted out, but it's probably best aired rather than left to fester.

 

[Brianbrewed]

equally disturbing left wing ones which get posted here.

Can I have a link to these please?
I can't seem to see them.

 

[Furry Shark Brewery]

[/QUOTE
You're spot on @Covrich. The moderator's job is a poisoned chalice and a lose/lose situation with very little thanks when things go right. I wouldn't do it. :hat:
I've only had one thread closed to me and I can't complain as I find it difficult to keep my big gob shut when it comes to Brexit and Conservatives.
What I would have appreciated though is a PM saying something like "You've been excluded from this thread because your contributions are becoming too high maintenance" or "because you've posted disrespectful remarks against Covrich" "Don't argue the issue because our decision is final".
I'll be glad when this lot is sorted out, but it's probably best aired rather than left to fester.

Indeed. For the first time ever I was banned from the entire forum a couple of weeks ago by Chippy Tea, having accused him of immoderate moderation. No right of reply, I wasn’t even able, unlike the viewing public, to view the site. Just landed on a page announcing my “sentence”.

I now have 1 “follower”. Guess who? Just childish.

The irony of what I said, which was fair comment and for which there is overwhelming evidence, is not lost. I am totally put off the forum by this and now hardly visit. Moderating is a tough gig and one I certainly would not want, but more balance and impartiality is a must, not a nice to have.

There are some great people here but also some pretty unpleasant types who appear to benefit from “moderation output” than do others I suggest.

 

[An Ankoù]

I, for one, would hate to see you go @Furry Shark Brewery. There was something last year that really got my goat- I can't even remember what it was. I cleared my "watched" list, logged out for a few days and when I came back I stuck religiously to the beer threads. It all blew over.
Allowing Brexit threads was always going to be a game of Russian roulette, but otherwise the mods would be accused of censorship! Maybe we're getting stir crazy because of lock down.
From my perspective there are certainly some opinions which I'm surprised are allowed.

 

[Covrich]

Can I have a link to these please?
I can't seem to see them.

No , because A you will only see what you want to see and i do not have time to trawl through. I try to avoid reading brexit threads and political stuff because I dont really have a dog in the fight and it doesn't interest me so much. Hense why we say use reporting rather than abuse and then venting we do not censor properly to your own perspective.

I dont see myself as either left or right but there are times I am equally appalled at things said by either side.. if you are aligned to either one of them sides you will not see it.

However we cannot win, I have only ever shut down posts when people got personal and abusive.. if that is censorship then **** it.. I quit.

 

[Brianbrewed]

Grand.
I have seen far right stuff.
Never equally disturbing left wing.

 

[An Ankoù]

However we cannot win, I have only ever shut down posts when people got personal and abusive.. if that is censorship then **** it.. I quit.

Don't do that, Covrich.
I was just thinking about censorship:
We already have it- we're not allowed to discuss distilling, and probably with good reason.
Another forum states in their rules that religion is not to be discussed. I haven't looked at the rules of other forums.
Perhaps when there are hot and emotive topics they should go on a "suspense" list. For example, If it was deemed that "the negatives of Brexit" was boiling over, perhaps telling everyone that it's closed for a week or a fortnight until feelings cool down would be a middle way between censorship and freedom of opinion.
Just a thought. Trying to be constructive. Love them or hate them, we still need moderators.

 

[Covrich]

Well like I say it depends on your personal point of view and moral compass and mark my words I am appalled by things on both sides of the coin.

BUT it is not me to say what is right abd wrong and let people discuss and debate things as long as they are civil.

But if we shut down abuse and personal comments its over moderation, yet on the other hand We were acused of not shutting down views the other day which someone didn;t agree with?

What do I do? shut down free speech as long as it only agrees with certain posters points of view.


My biggest gripe here is an I appreciate I am a lot younger than a great majority of this forum is people do not know how to be nice and civil when faced with someone who happens to see the world in a different way for better or worse.. Doesn't matter what you believe in, whether you believe Brexit was good vaccines are evil whilst we roam around on Gods green flat earth.

 

[Furry Shark Brewery]

I, for one, would hate to see you go @Furry Shark Brewery. There was something last year that really got my goat- I can't even remember what it was. I cleared my "watched" list, logged out for a few days and when I came back I stuck religiously to the beer threads. It all blew over.
Allowing Brexit threads was always going to be a game of Russian roulette, but otherwise the mods would be accused of censorship! Maybe we're getting stir crazy because of lock down.
From my perspective there are certainly some opinions which I'm surprised are allowed.

I appreciate that, thank you. Life is one rich tapestry and I am all for plurality of opinion and decent discussions/debates with measure and good humour. There are just some topics, however, that quickly accelerate into Mad Max territory. Personally, I am steering away from such for a while as, something @strange-steve said the other day which resonated with me, no-one in the history of the Internet has changed another’s mind [on politics, religion etc, etc] or something like that. And when you learn of someone’s bigoted etc views of life, it is really hard to get past such and enjoy beery/other banter again with them. So, yes it is very much double-edged sword territory, necessitating first class moderation.

I‘ll use the kids PlayStation if I want combat. The dog too likes a good play-fight.

 

[Brianbrewed]

@strange-steve said the other day which resonated with me, no-one in the history of the Internet has changed another’s mind [on politics, religion etc, etc] or something like that.

For me, the point of a debate is not to change somebodys mind.
It is an oppurtunity to see somebodys elses point of view.

I enjoyed talking to people like @Justin Dean and other people who, I suspect, hold a very different world view to my own.

It's wonderful that people who may have very religious views, life experience and politics share a love of brewing beer.

 

[Furry Shark Brewery]

For me, the point of a debate is not to change somebodys mind.
It is an oppurtunity to see somebodys elses point of view.

I enjoyed talking to people like @Justin Dean and other people who, I suspect, hold a very different world view to my own.

It's wonderful that people who may have very religious views, life experience and politics share a love of brewing beer.

I don‘t disagree and my misquote, for me, is a label that represents what can also be frustratingly poor quality, insulting and low brow recycling of echo-chamber bigotry, particularly with anything to do with Brexit I have found. Cult-like pursuit of the same is wearisome and so for my own health and wellbeing I tend to avoid more than engage now. Developing Tourettes-like symptoms (I do jest here and exaggerate to make my point) is not the (my) way forward. But absolutely support that such debates take place and the rule set fairly applied.

I too like discoursing with people with different experiences and views. I think us remainer types are quite an inclusive, open and tolerant lot. I have just had my fill of Brexit, that’s all. I also commend your ability to enjoy such company. Shame the -ve Brexit thread was pretty much killed off. I’ll get me coat before I am shot.....

 

[Gerryjo]

I‘ll use the kids PlayStation if I want combat. The dog too likes a good play-fight.
[/QUOTE]
I love playing the kids at TEKKEN cause no matter how good they think they are they still get beat at some stage.
Is it possible to attach a games forum to the SNUG and let them go there and fight it out.....

 

[Furry Shark Brewery]

I‘ll use the kids PlayStation if I want combat. The dog too likes a good play-fight.

I love playing the kids at TEKKEN cause no matter how good they think they are they still get beat at some stage.
Is it possible to attach a games forum to the SNUG and let them go there and fight it out.....
[/QUOTE]
An inspired suggestion, Sir. May I suggest a really strong civil war theme?

Damn, I wish I could code!