What are cask ales?

[Dads_Ale]

My 2 cents worth to the debate here, but surely beer tastes completely different from a traditional wooden barrel as opposed from a steel one. more room for debate here me thinks

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[foxy]

Makes sense. But if you are in control of carbonation in your bottles, could you not then lower it a little to match the cask ale level of carbonation?

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I cask, bottle and keg, the only beers I keg are AIPA's you could lower your bottle carbonation to match a cask, pour out your beer and it will look flat, with a large syringe load it up with air and discharge into the beer, that is as close as you will achieve to cask ale from a bottle.
Making your own setup for cask ale is simple, the cask can be a heavy duty cube which are used for chemical containers, this acts as a secondary, a small amount of sugar and fill from the fermenter. Give it a week and it will have settled and have some carbonation, a cheap pump can be made from a Valterra RP800 Rocket hand pump (plenty of builds on Google) I made one and with the use of silicone tubing and a tap aerator made a sparkler, I have a hand pump which is a half pint pull and the Rocket pump pours just as good. I think the reason behind the love of real ale through a pump and it is only my own theory is air is made up of almost 80% nitrogen, which I think the mixture of air through the sparkler adds to the beer that nice creamy head and taste from an almost flat beer.

John Guest tap for pressure release.
The cube acting as the cask.

 

[Irishwizard]

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I don't need to join???
just pointing out that beer was traditionally served from oak barrels and does in fact taste totally different to beer served from anything else.

 

[terrym]

I don't need to join???
just pointing out that beer was traditionally served from oak barrels and does in fact taste totally different to beer served from anything else.

It's a long time since I knowingly had a pint served from a wooden barrel, I thought all breweries had replaced them with stainless steel years ago.
There can't be many coopers left to make barrels either.
I originate from Burton on Trent (although I no longer live there) and there is a statue in the town shopping area called the Burton Cooper which I have as my avatar on this forum, and have had for some time. The coopers were a very important tradesman in the brewery, and every brewery had its own cooperage.
And related to this, I used to know someone who was a 'smeller' at Marstons Brewery in Burton whose job it was to smell the cleaned wooden barrels to make sure that they were clean enough to receive a new charge of ale. I'll bet that job doesn't exist any more.

 

[Martybhoy]

Nice setup Foxy.

The pressure release - is it preset to a certain level and then left alone? You don't have to release pressure manually before each pour?

Also, what is the dead space in your cube?

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[Irishwizard]

It's a long time since I knowingly had a pint served from a wooden barrel, I thought all breweries had replaced them with stainless steel years ago.
There can't be many coopers left to make barrels either.
I originate from Burton on Trent (although I no longer live there) and there is a statue in the town shopping area called the Burton Cooper which I have as my avatar on this forum, and have had for some time. The coopers were a very important tradesman in the brewery, and every brewery had its own cooperage.
And related to this, I used to know someone who was a 'smeller' at Marstons Brewery in Burton whose job it was to smell the cleaned wooden barrels to make sure that they were clean enough to receive a new charge of ale. I'll bet that job doesn't exist any more.

Quite right terry. I think there are very few true 'Coopers" left. you are more likely to find a barrel these days in a garden centre!! to stick plants in. I had a look at some German barels as used by the Camdentown Brewery and they were plastic. They may have been steel with a plastic coating but it was hard to tell..made in Germany and very Teutonic looking though. They do seem to churn out stuff of high quality very easily. Maybe in 50 years time oak barrels will be back in vogue and the cooperage will be back in GB... though I think not. I do think though that oak barrels give beer a certain/different flavour buts thats another ridiculous debate...hang on...dray horses....here we go...

 

[simon12]

I imagine with oak casks it would depend alot on how long its in there for. The nearest thing I think I have ever tried was innes and gunn oak aged bottled beer which if I remember correctly I don't think I liked very much.

 

[simon12]

Do you think you could replicate it by dry hopping with oak chips?

 

[Martybhoy]

Possibly. The Malt Miller sells oak chips from whisky and rum casks. I'm sure you'd find plain oak chips also easy to come by

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[peebee]

... just pointing out that beer was traditionally served from oak barrels and does in fact taste totally different to beer served from anything else.

A tradition forced on breweries by wooden casks being the only practical option. These days some breweries mature their beer in whisky barrels, or barrels that have contained something else, and they certainly flavour the beer. Some such barrels are even chipped and supplied to the breweries for the purpose of flavouring. Some breweries have even held on to their wooden casks and still use them, as a gimmick.

There was a time when I was convinced I could taste the wooden cask in the real ale I was drinking; until I learnt the beer came in steel casks. Yeast especially is responsible for "woody" flavours in low carbonated beer - I know that now.

Used wooden beer casks add nothing to a beer (although given enough time bugs like "brett" that can hide away in a wooden cask may manifest themselves). Even wine gains little from wooden casks (much longer contact time) unless the intention is to add flavours, and then NEW oak barrels are used.

 

[peebee]

... I think the reason behind the love of real ale through a pump and it is only my own theory is air is made up of almost 80% nitrogen, which I think the mixture of air through the sparkler adds to the beer that nice creamy head and taste from an almost flat beer ...

"I think..." you say, so you wont be too upset if I say you are wrong?

Sparklers are used with "Northern pour" spouts (or sometimes on extensions to "Southern pour" spouts). This allows the sparkler to be submerged in the beer. The fine holes in the sparkler forces CO2 out of solution in fine bubbles to create the creamy head. Unfortunately in some beers it can force other qualities out of the beer (like mouth-feel and, ironically, taste) so you have to be careful with them. But the point is, very little air gets mixed in with a Northern pour spout, which is why I prefer "Southern pour" where air does get incorporated in the turbulence - but little head forms.

To get Nitrogen involved you have to look to the likes of Guinness and use b***-breaking pressures and frigid temperatures.

BTW. A sparkler on a Southern pour spout makes a very good (if a bit sticky) shower for a Cindy doll.

 

[foxy]

Nice setup Foxy.

The pressure release - is it preset to a certain level and then left alone? You don't have to release pressure manually before each pour?

Also, what is the dead space in your cube?

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No I manually release the pressure as the beer is conditioning I use a 15 litre cube so there would be a couple of litres of head space which is filled with CO2, when I am using the pump I have the cask connected to a bag of CO2 which the vacuum draws in.

 

[peebee]

... I prefer "Southern pour" where air does get incorporated in the turbulence - but little head forms. ...

Just to illustrate the difference: This is Angram's take on "Southern pour" nozzles fitted to the pumps on my "work-in-progress" bar under the stairs (other makes can be stubbier and straighter). The nozzles come as an option but I had to buy these to retrofit some existing pumps that had "Northern pour" ("swan-neck") nozzles.

 

[foxy]

Southerners could never get anything right.:whistle:

 

[peebee]

Southerners could never get anything right.:whistle:

What do you mean? Southern spouts with a sparkler make perfect showers for Cindy dolls (haven't got a Cindy doll, can't think why).

 

[Thumper]

Just to illustrate the difference: This is Angram's take on "Southern pour" nozzles fitted to the pumps on my "work-in-progress" bar under the stairs (other makes can be stubbier and straighter). The nozzles come as an option but I had to buy these to retrofit some existing pumps that had "Northern pour" ("swan-neck") nozzles.

The one's in that photo look swan-necked to me.

 

[peebee]

The one's in that photo look swan-necked to me.

Well I did say Angram's "take" on a Southern nozzle. I guess they're all Northerners and wouldn't let go of the nozzle design altogether. Their "take" won't generate as much turbulence (it has curves for a smooth flow) but the important bit is you can't push the nozzle deep into the glass. The threaded end on the Southern pour design lets you attach "extensions" with sparkler should you change your mind. Or just attach the sparkler directly for a Cindy shower.

Here's the Northern nozzle ("swan-neck"):

 

[Thumper]

Well I did say Angram's "take" on a Southern nozzle. I guess they're all Northerners and wouldn't let go of the nozzle design altogether. Their "take" won't generate as much turbulence (it has curves for a smooth flow) but the important bit is you can't push the nozzle deep into the glass. The threaded end on the Southern pour design lets you attach "extensions" with sparkler should you change your mind. Or just attach the sparkler directly for a Cindy shower.

Here's the Northern nozzle ("swan-neck"):

Ah, I see; the difference is the nozzle goes to the bottom of the glass. With you.

Now I think about it, southern taps normally are shorter. The only difference I'd noticed before is that we don't screw the stupid plastic sparkler caps on the end, though they're always threaded to take one.

 

[simon12]

When I have a pilot brewery one of our customers had that exactly northern type taps with the sparkler and the beer is totally different. He mainly used it as he could serve it in acceptable condition when its a bit past its best, problem was he would still serve it when it was way past its best.

 

[peebee]

I was a typical Real Ale swilling, sparkler despising, drinker. And then I had my own pumps to manage (3 of 'em). And I learnt there are times when a sparkler can create a much smoother pint (as well as a grand head).

But these times are rare. I also learnt, because previously I just had an unfounded prejudice against sparklers, that sparklers can rip the heart out of a beer. Destroying body, mouth-feel, flavour, and just about any quality the beer might have.

Using sparklers is okay, but automatically using them without concern for the potential negative impact is just stupid.