Water prepping before all grain brew advice needed please

[Sadfield]

 

[tondy79]

I'm really trying hard to understand this, but I think I may still have it all backwards!

Is anyone willing to take a look at my Anglian Water report (attached here) and see if I have entered these figures correctly? It is the "Bicarbonate" that I'm struggling with... and I'm not sure if I've used the correct number for Calcium either:

Calcium: 81.74 ppm
Magnesium: 9.05 ppm
Sodium: 34.42 ppm
Chloride: 56.00 ppm
Sulphate: 108.61 ppm
Bicarbonate (HCO3): 151.30 ppm (from "THE FOETID MIRE")
Alkalinity: 124.02 ppm as CACO3 (calculated by the defuddler)

 

[Old Fart At Play]

Okay, your turn! You want to make this water caper as easy as possible.

Interesting. I have been using the water treatment calculator on this site (Water Treatment Calculator Page) for some time. I thought I'd look at the Brewfather one to see how it compares - I haven't used Brewfather before.

I can save my water profile as the source no problem, and I can see a list of beer styles beneath as target profiles. But how do you work out eg how much gypsum to add in order to achieve a specific target profile? Do you have to calculate it yourself somehow? The HomeBrewForum calculator tells you how much of each treatment you need, which is what I need. Can I do that woth BrewFather? Thanks!

(Incidentally I'm perfectly happy with the HomeBrewForum calculator, I am just interested to compare it to another one)

 

[Rwilts]

Brewfather does tell you all amounts to achieve desired profile.

 

[fximpact25]

Yes! Going back to your original table:

View attachment 91497

Those lines not coloured are fine, enter them as is (Chloride, Calcium, Magnesium, Sodium and Sulphate). They are measured in milligrams of ion per Litre of pure water ("mg/l"). At these low cocentrations in water it's the same as measuring them in Parts-per-million ("ppm").

The two coloured lines are different, but do use the same measuring technique. They are measuring "something" or "somethings" as if it is (or they are) "something else", or aka "equivalents". So the yellow line measures "alkalinity" as milligrams per litre of bicarbonate ions (HCO3-), whether the stuff being measured is bicarbonate or something else. The red line ... you aren't told this, you have to know it (or make a good guess!) ... measures "hardness" as milligrams per litre of (virtually insoluble) calcium carbonate rock (CaCO3), whether the stuff being measured is calcium carbonate rock or something else. In this case we're measuring "total hardness" so we're not interested in the "CO3--" bit, only the "Ca++" bit, and as hardness also include Magnesium (and assorted other metal ions, but they are always in insignificant amounts in drinkable water). Magnesium is measured as if it is Calcium too.

"Alkalinity" on the other hand is nearly (or is) 100% due to bicarbonate in drinkable (treated) waters.

"Alkalinity" is really useful for predicting the pH of a mash. "Hardness" is really useful for ... well ... nothing at all! You could use "Temporary Hardness" inplace of "Alkalinity" but do remember you are using the "CO3--" bit, not the "Ca++" bit.

Okay, your turn! You want to make this water caper as easy as possible. To simplify things one of those seven lines in your table has to go. The red line (calcium carbonate rock) or the yellow line (bicarbonate)?

Which are you going to choose?

As a bonus question! Is there anything in the above making the subject of water for brewing particularily difficult to understand? And can we do without it!

So im ignoring both caco3 and hco3 dont input them leave them on zero but input the rest correct .

 

[Old Fart At Play]

I'm really trying hard to understand this, but I think I may still have it all backwards!

Is anyone willing to take a look at my Anglian Water report (attached here) and see if I have entered these figures correctly? It is the "Bicarbonate" that I'm struggling with... and I'm not sure if I've used the correct number for Calcium either:

Calcium: 81.74 ppm
Magnesium: 9.05 ppm
Sodium: 34.42 ppm
Chloride: 56.00 ppm
Sulphate: 108.61 ppm
Bicarbonate (HCO3): 151.30 ppm (from "THE FOETID MIRE")
Alkalinity: 124.02 ppm as CACO3 (calculated by the defuddler)

I haven't used BrewFather before, just looking at it now. The first 5 figures you have entered all look right to me, but I don't see in the report where you are getting HCO3 or Alkalinity figures from. Since BrewFather asks for an HCO3 figure, I would use that rather than a CACO3 figure. Once you put your figures in, have you sussed out how to get it to tell you how much of each treatment (eg gypsum) you need? I can't see that

 

[Old Fart At Play]

Brewfather does tell you all amounts to achieve desired profile.

Thanks. Where?

 

[fximpact25]

Wheres a good place too order epsom , gypsum and rhe rest .

 

[Old Fart At Play]

Brewfather does tell you all amounts to achieve desired profile.

OK looking at your earlier posts you recommend looking at YT videos etc to explain this, so I found the BF documentation and it looks like you need to create an actual recipe before you can get it to spit out the treatments you need to convert your source profile to the target profile.

Not much good to me, I use other software for recipes etc so I'll stick to the water treatment calculator on here.

Thanks.

 

[Rwilts]

Thanks. Where?

As you have identified as part of the recipe you tell it your source and desired style and it will show any additions.

 

[peebee]

I'm really trying hard to understand this, but I think I may still have it all backwards! ...

Oh goodie, goodie! Another! I'm not sure I'll get an answer to my questions from @fximpact25 because I may have made a slipup ... I posed questions and he might not want to publicly answer 'em in case he gets them very publicly wrong? So, I'll use this query to answer the questions: "Two birds with one stone"?

"Peterborough City Dogsthorpe Public Water Supply Zone (FW49)", first off: On page one there is a section "Hardness" ... delete it, obscure, do anything you want with it, but, don't read it! It's full of confusing rubbish that you really don't need to understand. On page two there is a line "Hardness (total) as Calcium"; delete, obscure, whatever, that too (it's more confusing contradictory rubbish).

That'll do for now, the rest needs the help of that "Defuddler" 'cos the Anglian Water haven't bothered to supply enough to figure out the all-important "bicarbonate" (no "alkalinity, not even old-fashioned "temporary hardness").

 

[peebee]

So im ignoring both caco3 and hco3 dont input them leave them on zero but input the rest correct .

Don't ignore the "HCO3", your water company have been very nice to you including that (but they've worded it poorly). They've been absolute bar-stewards giving you that "CaCO3" garbage: delete that! Reasons about to be discussed ...

 

[tondy79]

That'll do for now, the rest needs the help of that "Defuddler" 'cos the Anglian Water haven't bothered to supply enough to figure out the all-important "bicarbonate" (no "alkalinity, not even old-fashioned "temporary hardness").

Yes, I duly ignored most of the report based on your advice in this and other threads, and have taken the values I listed above from the "CHEMICAL PARAMETERS" section... but this leaves me without a bicarbonate or alkalinity figure

 

[Sadfield]

Just needs a teaspoon of gypsum to get the calcium above 50ppm. The sulphate it adds, and your waters bicarbonate will be perfect for accentuating the hops and dryness of a saison.

https://www.brewersfriend.com/water-chemistry/

 

[peebee]

Interesting. I have been using the water treatment calculator on this site (Water Treatment Calculator Page) for some time. ...

That calculator looks okay, but it does suggest using insoluble chalk, which you can use, but you have to be very "clever" to get what you want from it: I would not recommend trying to use "chalk". The calculator also goes on a lot about "CaCO3"; again, you can use it, but you have to be very "clever" to get what you want from it: I would not recommend trying to use "CaCO3" constructs either (yes, they are "constructs", not real things).

Same with the Brewfather software. I believe Kai Troester has something to do with it? A very clever chappie (Kai that is) who is perfectly capable of using "chalk" and "CaCO3" constructs to his advantage. Unfortunately, I don't think he realises the havoc he creates pushing those arcane methods onto us mere mortals.

 

[Rogerh]

I am after help as well. Attached is my sort of water report from Severn Trent. Can some clever person please have a look at this and tell me the figures I need. Thanks.

 

[peebee]

... but this leaves me without a bicarbonate or alkalinity figure

Okay, back to it ...

Is anyone willing to take a look at my Anglian Water report (attached here) and see if I have entered these figures correctly? It is the "Bicarbonate" that I'm struggling with... and I'm not sure if I've used the correct number for Calcium either:

Calcium: 81.74 ppm
Magnesium: 9.05 ppm
Sodium: 34.42 ppm
Chloride: 56.00 ppm
Sulphate: 108.61 ppm

If you've performed the previous deletion recommendations, you're only left with that list of ions to plug into the "Defuddler". Just the "Chloride" to correct ... 81.74ppm ... I think you misread the lines (easy on these titchy tables) and read the line beneath (which is "Chlorine" ... hell, they don't half chuck a lot of that in!). You picked the correct Calcium! Now you've deleted all that "Hardness" drivel it's much clearer! In "Hardness" they had "Total Hardness as Calcium (mg/l)", but that figure contains Magnesium (at least) masquerading as Calcium; obvious ... not!

So far:

Now the lack of "bicarbonate" is a PITA! It couldn't even be extracted from the "Hardness" drivel (which hopefully is now deleted). But the "Defuddler" has a trick for this situation! It's going to use "ion mass balancing" ... ... not an obvious route, but the "Defuddler" will do that, so don't worry about it! Note: This route makes a very good guess, but under these circumstances any error will be truly negligable.

Got to dig down into the depths of the "Foetid Mire" for this. We need plenty of information to make a good guess!

"Nitrates" is the one most useful. We have 24.3mg/l in the report. That's quite high so don't ignore it! Probably the result of agricultural runoff over E. Anglia way (fertilisers and cow poo ... sorry!). "Phosphates" isn't given, but it can be constucted from "Phosphorus" ("P4") ... which is given as 1.1ppb and has been entered but registers as nothing! Phosphate is usually a good indication of pollution, so "nothing" makes up for the cow poo! No "Potassium" recorded. The "Electrical Conductivity" and T.D.S. has no figures and isn't used anyway (unreliable, for curiosity only). Now move up a bit in the Mire ...

The heart of the "Mire" where "Total Hardness" hangs out. It is being filled in by "real" values above the surface ("Live Data") You do not linger here unless you have to! Note in the bottom right is the "balanced" value calculated in the depths: 67.06ppm "as CaCO3". Enter this value as a "user" source in the "Temporary Hardness" and "KH" boxes. You do not have to worry about what you've just done. Move back to the surface.

The value calculated below is converted from "as CaCO3" to "as HCO3" and floated on the surface. Nothing from below is automatically filled into boxes for fear of pollting good data with bad! And so, we have the missing "bicarbonate" figure. Hopefully, that is the hardest work anyone has to do with the "Defuddler".

 

[tondy79]

Okay, back to it ...

Peebee, this is fantastically helpful, thanks so much for taking the time to explain, and for building this highly useful defuddling tool!

I really appreciate it, thank you

 

[peebee]

I am after help as well. Attached is my sort of water report from Severn Trent. Can some clever person please have a look at this and tell me the figures I need. Thanks.

Another! Gawd, I might find myself regretting positioning myself inline for all these queries! But this one is potentially a good example of another trick that can be played with me "Defuddler".

I've had Severn Trent reports before. They may fail to provide "Alkalinity" or "Bicarbonate" values, but I've just posted a step-by-step account of how to extract that (above). But ST are also notorious for not publishing Calcium figures. The "Defuddler" is quite able to extract that from the "Total Hardness" figures. But to do it (without guessing) it needs the Magnesium figure. This is why I don't like "Hardness": It's measured in units of "as CaCO3" (sometimes units of "as Calcium"), but that provides no indication that the value includes Magnesium masquerading as Calcium! And other metals, but negligable in drinking water. Fortunately, ST have started publishing Magnesium figures, which allows Calcium figures to be extracted from the "Total Hardness" figure. I can demonstrate how the "Defuddler" does that ...

... humm

... err?

No I can't! The report you've posted is either very old or else they haven't switched to publishing Magnesium figures in your area. You can resort to guessing (the "Defuddler" has options to set ratios of Calcium-to-Magnesium ratios - I'd suggest 9:1 or 8:2) or you can get me an updated report. Meanwhile, here's an example of extracting a Calcium figure from Hardness figures using a much earlier version of the Defuddler:

https://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/...stion-soft-scottish-water.102557/post-1225840

 

[peebee]

... Can some clever person please have a look at this and tell me the figures I need. Thanks.

Oooh. I've just noticed, I've deemed myself as "clever" by answering your query!


I'd better put that in perspective ...

My Local Council deems me as "Severely Mentally Impaired" ("SMI"). I like pointing that out to help dispell the ideas their awful non-PC term implies to the general public! We are not daft! Well, at least I don't think I'm daft? Okay, but only a little bit?