Water Chemistry adjustment

[DJDave]

Relocated from Suffolk to Yorkshire Dales. Brewing has suffered, typically a lower efficiency meaning I am topping up with sugar to get desired OG at scheduled end of boil. Pale ales clarity is poor, flavour is dull. A black bitter is not so bad but not as good as the Suffolk brew. Water in Suffolk was very hard Dales water medium hard. Key components below.

The poor efficiency indicates perhaps a less than optimum mash PH. I have never worried about Mash PH in the past and have never measured before. However I did do some measurements today and adjusting for temperature it’s at the low end of the range – 5.2. The salts table does indicate I need to increase hardness to match Suffolk so perhaps gypsum is called for, the ca ions will further depress PH. I could try and raise PH by adding baking soda, Yorkshire water don’t specify the HCO3 but to match Suffolk a bit of sodium would also be good. Could use CaCO3 as well as to raise PH but bit concerned that by adding both I might overdo Ca additions.

Be interested to know people’s thoughts.

Units mg/l	Suffolk	Dales.
CaCO3	265	144
Ca	92.6	51.3
Chloride	71.25	9.9
HCO3	239.39
Mg	8.46	3.9
Na	44	7.8
SO4	75.28	56.395
PH	7.74	7.4

 

[peebee]

A subject I'm having a good rant about recently! You're being misled by arcane measurements. i.e. "CaCO3". There is virtually NO CaCO3 in your water! It's a unit to measure things by, and a flippin' confusing one too. It's possibly being used as a measure of "hardness" or perhaps "alkalinity"? It's used as a measure because it has properties that make working with it easy (molar weight of near enough 100). But it's just meaningless and confusing to most of us.

Forget it, or at least say what it is measuring.

For example: My water report includes "Hardness [Magnesium] (mg/l)": This is Dwr Cymru (Welsh Water). This is even less informative because it doesn't even say the figure is "as CaCO3", but it is! If it's divided by 4.1 (they haven't actually filled in the value on this area's report) you get 1.2, the Magnesium ions (ppm or mg/l) in the water. And how much Magnesium is actually in real CaCO3? ... Get it? Stupid idea, or what!

Give me what they (Dales) are measuring with it, and I might be able to approximate something useful. It would be handy if it's measuring temporary hardness or alkalinity.

Interestingly I got an email from Neil at Pheonix Analytical today (He did water analysis and lots of folk around here used him). To quote a line from it:

I do not report total hardness as it is of no use to the brewer.

But you might be able to get something useful from the temporary hardness figure (i.e. a bicarbonate figure).


One last thing: Don't use Chalk (CaCO3) in your water, it won't dissolve. And water in the Yorkshire Dales is likely loaded with bicarbonate (temporary hardness) anyway (being a limestone district, and limestone, like chalk, is CaCO3, which very slowly dissolves as bicarbonate).

 

[Clint]

This is something that bothers my head! I use strangesteves methods that were once active on the forum and (usually!) repeat water additions for repeat brews or brews under the same beer style. I'm happy with the results but reading (but not fully understanding)peebees break down of everything I wonder if I'm doing it right...I know people will say "why change if you're happy with your beer," but if I can improve something and understand something better I'm of the mindset I should at least try!
I need to go over the info again...and again until I can chop it all up into bits I can process.

 

[Sadfield]

Baking soda would be the easiest option for raising the mash pH. It would raise the alkalinity and add sodium. Plus some Calcium Chloride would also move things in the right direction. I guestimate your Alkalinty in HCO3 to be 108, using the ion balance on Graham Wheelers water calculator.

 

[peebee]

... but reading (but not fully understanding)peebees break down of everything I wonder if I'm doing it right ...

My intention is to do all the learning so I know what can be ignored. I think that will be compatible with what you want?

Currently it's down to following a half dozen ions (Calcium, Sulphate, etc.), ignoring "Hardness" and flippin' "as CaCO3" and delegating "Alkalinity" to one of the many water calculators (some free!). A problem I'm having is trying to develop a plan for is some of the water companies that don't provide important information like Calcium (or Magnesium) content and leave you trying to make sense out of silly "hardness" figures (which are measured "as CaCO3", ... grr-nash).

I'll get there. But I'm not a member of "the guild of wanna-be craft brewing water chemists", so I might get shouted down shortly.

I do have some serious "heavy" water chemist backup ... if they don't attempt to distance themselves as far as they can from me. And I promise not to mention "Cold Crashing" like a few days ago ... Damn! I just did. (Eeek! Incoming!)

 

[Galena]

I used Slaked Lime last time I needed to raise HCO3

 

[peebee]

I used Slaked Lime last time I needed to raise HCO3

Hum ... I suspect @DJDave already has high bicarbonate levels and won't need to raise it.

 

[DJDave]

A subject I'm having a good rant about recently! You're being misled by arcane measurements. i.e. "CaCO3". There is virtually NO CaCO3 in your water! It's a unit to measure things by, and a flippin' confusing one too. It's possibly being used as a measure of "hardness" or perhaps "alkalinity"? It's used as a measure because it has properties that make working with it easy (molar weight of near enough 100). But it's just meaningless and confusing to most of us.

Forget it, or at least say what it is measuring.

For example: My water report includes "Hardness [Magnesium] (mg/l)": This is Dwr Cymru (Welsh Water). This is even less informative because it doesn't even say the figure is "as CaCO3", but it is! If it's divided by 4.1 (they haven't actually filled in the value on this area's report) you get 1.2, the Magnesium ions (ppm or mg/l) in the water. And how much Magnesium is actually in real CaCO3? ... Get it? Stupid idea, or what!

Give me what they (Dales) are measuring with it, and I might be able to approximate something useful. It would be handy if it's measuring temporary hardness or alkalinity.

Interestingly I got an email from Neil at Pheonix Analytical today (He did water analysis and lots of folk around here used him). To quote a line from it:



But you might be able to get something useful from the temporary hardness figure (i.e. a bicarbonate figure).


One last thing: Don't use Chalk (CaCO3) in your water, it won't dissolve. And water in the Yorkshire Dales is likely loaded with bicarbonate (temporary hardness) anyway (being a limestone district, and limestone, like chalk, is CaCO3, which very slowly dissolves as bicarbonate).

I should have said Yorkshire water are using ca+ to express hardness as CaCO3 - you could choose Clarke, German or French degrees on their conversion calculator.

 

[DJDave]

A subject I'm having a good rant about recently! You're being misled by arcane measurements. i.e. "CaCO3". There is virtually NO CaCO3 in your water! It's a unit to measure things by, and a flippin' confusing one too. It's possibly being used as a measure of "hardness" or perhaps "alkalinity"? It's used as a measure because it has properties that make working with it easy (molar weight of near enough 100). But it's just meaningless and confusing to most of us.

Forget it, or at least say what it is measuring.

For example: My water report includes "Hardness [Magnesium] (mg/l)": This is Dwr Cymru (Welsh Water). This is even less informative because it doesn't even say the figure is "as CaCO3", but it is! If it's divided by 4.1 (they haven't actually filled in the value on this area's report) you get 1.2, the Magnesium ions (ppm or mg/l) in the water. And how much Magnesium is actually in real CaCO3? ... Get it? Stupid idea, or what!

Give me what they (Dales) are measuring with it, and I might be able to approximate something useful. It would be handy if it's measuring temporary hardness or alkalinity.

Interestingly I got an email from Neil at Pheonix Analytical today (He did water analysis and lots of folk around here used him). To quote a line from it:



But you might be able to get something useful from the temporary hardness figure (i.e. a bicarbonate figure).


One last thing: Don't use Chalk (CaCO3) in your water, it won't dissolve. And water in the Yorkshire Dales is likely loaded with bicarbonate (temporary hardness) anyway (being a limestone district, and limestone, like chalk, is CaCO3, which very slowly dissolves as bicarbonate).

and yes, just the idea of adding chalk is a bit off putting

 

[DJDave]

Thank you all, digesting everybody's input & twiddling with graham wheeler's liquor treatment calculator

 

[MashBag]

I fell into this quagmire last year when my water went haywire because of the drought.

I found reading the Murphy's stuff made it easy to understand. And then using AMS & DWB from Maltmiller (Murphy's product) sorted it. It does not have to be a cocktail cabinet with a recipe book written in Latin.

... And as well as solving the problem, it improved my beer.

 

[lancon]

Send a sample to Murphy's.

 

[Sadfield]

Some extra reading that may be of use.

https://www.brunwater.com/articles/carbonate-and-bicarbonate
https://www.brunwater.com/articles/chalk-none-up-for-chalk

 

[peebee]

I should have said Yorkshire water are using ca+ to express hardness as CaCO3 - you could choose Clarke, German or French degrees on their conversion calculator.

I think you mean they are expressing Calcium Hardness as CaCO3? But as they give you a Calcium value in ppm (mg/l) you can ignore the "as CaCO3" value.

But doesn't add up though. This next bit you don't have to absorb, it's only academic: Calcium ppm x 2.5 = Calcium ppm as CaCO3. So, 51.3x2.5=128.25, should be 144 so it doesn't add up. Total Hardness is how much "multi-valent" metal ions are in the water, but in British tap water the "metals" will be almost entirely Calcium and Magnesium. Mg is listed as 3.9 ppm, so convert that to as CaCO3 by multiplying by 4.1 (the magic number for doing this to Mg) ... 3.9 x 4.1 = 15.99. This is now an example of why we have these "equivalates" like as CaCO3 ... 128.25 + 15.99 = 144.24. So, the value you have down for "CaCO3" (144mg/l or ppm) is Total Hardness. Your French Hardness is one tenth that at 14.4. Now you can forget all that, it's no help at all!

What we really need is a value for "temporary hardness", or "alkalinity", so we can determine your bicarbonate content. There is not a lot in your water of other things, so I don't think you need an outside analysis (yet) ...

 

[DJDave]

Baking soda would be the easiest option for raising the mash pH. It would raise the alkalinity and add sodium. Plus some Calcium Chloride would also move things in the right direction. I guestimate your Alkalinty in HCO3 to be 108, using the ion balance on Graham Wheelers water calculator.

Interesting calculator - how did you work out carbonate?

 

[DJDave]

Just to muddy the water further Essex & Suffolk water have issued new report for 2022 -

even more salts than before

 

[Sadfield]

Interesting calculator - how did you work out carbonate?

Footnote 3 under the calculator explains it better. However, the six parameters have to balance out in order for the water to physically exist. As we know five of the six values on the Enter Your Water Composition row, the sixth can be adjusted to get the two values in row 3 (Initial Ion Balance Check (milliequivs)) to match. This can be done by adjusting the Alkalinty in HCO3 box in the top left corner, to alter the Carbonate in CO3 value under Enter Your Water Composition.

Hope this makes sense. It is a shame that this calculator only adjusts HCO3 by adding chalk. However, this back calculation of alkalinity can be used elsewhere, such as the much more complicated Bru'nwater.

https://www.brunwater.com/download
Or, you could just use a bit of trial and error, and add Baking Soda and Calcium Chloride to your next mash of this brew.

 

[peebee]

... even more salts than before ...

Apart from that first entry (that's for the "Hardness" diehards) that latter report is everything you'll ever want for playing with brewing water!

Now you just need the same from Yorkshire Water. You need that carbonate/bicarbonate detail. Even "temporary hardness" (in the stupid "as CaCO3" units) will do.

If you have both total and temporary hardness (and perhaps permanent hardness) in those "as CaCO3" units, you'll notice they are all different values. Now, if you make the common mistake of reading the units as "is CaCO3" (and I've done it too!) then you'll have three different values for CaCO3. That'll be confusing! And it's the reason I rant about it and advise against taking any notice of "Hardness".

Interesting calculator - how did you work out carbonate?

I'm prevented from seeing what you are answering, but unless the person you are answering has more information than in the OP, you can't.

You need that HCO3 figure (it'll be an "as" but doesn't matter like the daft "as CaCO3"), or, at a pinch, alkalinity or "temporary hardness" figures (in whatever units). You can very roughly judge bicarbonate with the addition of a "conductivity" figure (if you have a good imagination). I'm at a loss of judging it any other how? (A Salifert KH/Alkalinity kit is perhaps an answer).

 

[MashBag]

Send a sample to Murphy's.

Not sure they still do

 

[peebee]

Just to muddy the water further Essex & Suffolk water have issued new report for 2022 - ...

Just noticed something daft in that first table you've posted:

Didn't I earlier explain how to calculate "Total Hardness" from its main constituents (Calcium and Magnesium)? (Post #14, but it was referring to the Dales, not Essex). Here we have a figure I'd describe as "total hardness" at 473.80ppm as CaCO3 ... and then it appears lower down with a value of 189.52? Which is correct?

The reporting units have been changed, and the latter figure is probably "as Calcium":

Now it just so happens 40% of CaCO3 is Calcium. So, 473.80 x 40% = 189.52. Well, blow me over with a feather!

Note it's "Total" so includes Magnesium as well as Calcium. Hence "mg/l Ca" isn't the same as "total hardness". "Total hardness" includes Magnesium masquerading as Calcium.

Told you this "Hardness" business is an utter mire. The quicker you ignore it (Hardness) the quicker you can get your sanity back!



[EDIT: Not wanting to mislead: "Total Hardness" isn't just Calcium and Magnesium ... it's all the multi-valent metal ions. But in drinking water the "others" amount to an insignificant amount ... Stop it! I said ignore "Hardness so I shouldn't keep babbling about it!]