Using Kegland spunding valve for pressure fermentation

[foxy]

OK. Personally, I find Dr. Chris White's estimate of 3-15 is more realistic. And, seeing co2 coming out of solution may take longer. If you are using pressure to reduce esters, then you don't want to wait until esters are produced during exponential growth, to start adding pressure.

https://byo.com/article/fermentation-time-line/
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It's a closed system until there's positive pressure to over come the spring pressure behind the valve, that's the primary function of a valve, they open when required.

You know pressure fermenting reduces H2S, you've used the counter argument before that Chris White prefers lagers that haven't been overly pressure fermented and contain some Sulphur in the flavour profile. He's says as much in the above video at 30 minutes. He's even told you in person.

Well maybe I should have stated fermentation stage when there is no CO2 being produced so it takes 24 to 36 hours to produce top pressure.
Without any pressure the yeast will clean up H2S given time.
The OP's question was about using a blow of tube when using the Blowtie spunding valve, the Keg Land link determines it is better to use a blow off tube with the Blowtie, and ferment as normal for 24 to 48 hours before applying pressure, Teri Farhendorf a head brewer suggest the same as does Chris White.

Thanks again everyone - really useful discussion that I’ve not seen covering all these points in one place before. My takeaways against my 3 original questions are:

1. Don’t need a blow-off tube attached to the spunding valve unless the valve is fully open with no positive pressure from the fermenter side. But it doesn’t hurt to attach one as a ‘belt & braces’ approach.

2. Depending on your view of the length of the yeast’s lag phase, you can probably set the spunding valve to create pressure right from the start of fermentation.

3. Aim to start fermentation at the normal operating temperature for the yeast but if it’s a bit higher that should be OK.

Entirely up to you when you apply pressure, but at least by adding the blow-off tube you are covering your bases regarding infection. The Blowtie is the cheapest diaphragm valve on the market and even though it isn't bidirectional a drop in fermentation temperature could cause a suck back, also without regular cleaning they can tend to stick and they do collect crud.

I have brewed many (50+) lagers under pressure in this way, I have never put the output from the spunding valve in sanitiser and never had a problem. The pressure is driving CO2 out so nothing can go in.
I have pressurised the fermenter and then set the spunding valve to the correct pressure and sometimes just let it do its own thing if I am sure the valve is set right, and again had no problems. I mainly use SafLager 34/70 yeast and maybe it's very tolerant. I have also put into the fermenter at 22degC and it has raised the temp to 24-25 with no real adverse effects.
I can't vouch for any other yeasts with this method.
I also just tip the yeast (2 packets in 55 litres) in the wort when pitching from my counter chiller and it's going crazy in 24 hours.

Well they aren't lager without the lagering process. I am a great believer in Murphys Law so I try to leave nothing to chance, I don't pay for ingredients but on the two occasions I had an infection I got as mad as a cut snake. Not about ingredients but the time wasted.
I tried pressure fermenting in 2017 by 2018 I had given it away, I found the quality of the end product lacking.

How can there be? Pressure is just a mechanism for suppressing esters and everyone has differing expectations.

Commercial breweries rarely pressure ferment because they want esters, they are a unique fingerprint of how their brewery and process shapes the taste and aroma of their beers. The general public either like it or they don't.

I have been in many commercial breweries around the world and unless they are using open fermenters I haven't seen one that doesn't use a spunding valve, or a blowoff tube for that matter. No they don't pressure ferment, they only use the spunding valve towards the end of fermentation to partially carbonate the beer saving money on the purchasing of CO2

 

[Sadfield]

I have been in many commercial breweries around the world and unless they are using open fermenters I haven't seen one that doesn't use a spunding valve, or a blowoff tube for that matter.

Skilfully highlighting that beer can survive far more than not having a dip tube on a blowtie.

 

[foxy]

Skilfully highlighting that beer can survive far more than not having a dip tube on a blowtie.

Very different, the environment the open fermenters are in is controlled. And if not they are covered when the krausen dies down and before the krausen forms.

 

[Herms bay]

Well they aren't lager without the lagering process. I am a great believer in Murphys Law so I try to leave nothing to chance, I don't pay for ingredients but on the two occasions I had an infection I got as mad as a cut snake. Not about ingredients but the time wasted.
I tried pressure fermenting in 2017 by 2018 I had given it away, I found the quality of the end product lacking.

Firstly, the spunding valve is a cheap, but effective device. The only way I can think that crud could stop it working is if you allow crud into it. If you do it is easy (as your picture shows) to take it apart and clean it. I am an engineer who designs process plants so am very familiar with process equipment.

Secondly, I have never got an infection in any pressure "lager" I have brewed using this method. I was just sharing my data on that fact to give confidence in "my opinion"

Thirdly, What has lagering process got to do with primary fermentation? I thought lagering was chilling and aging off the yeast which I do in corney kegs. I may be wrong but i don't claim to be an expert. I don't follow German purity laws either. I just make Pale lager type beer that I like and is way better (in my opinion) than the American, Australian and English "lager" pish in the supermarkets.

 

[phildo79]

Seems a bit more discussion is needed, pitched yeast has a lag phase of 24 to 36 hours.

I pitched a packet of S-33 yeast at 2pm on Tuesday. 8 hours later I had to switch out my 2L blow-off bottle for a 5L jug, as the bubbles/foam were almost escaping out of the bottle. By 9am the next day, fermentation was complete. I have NEVER seen anything like that and I have been brewing for over a decade.

 

[foxy]

Firstly, the spunding valve is a cheap, but effective device. The only way I can think that crud could stop it working is if you allow crud into it. If you do it is easy (as your picture shows) to take it apart and clean it. I am an engineer who designs process plants so am very familiar with process equipment.

Secondly, I have never got an infection in any pressure "lager" I have brewed using this method. I was just sharing my data on that fact to give confidence in "my opinion"

Thirdly, What has lagering process got to do with primary fermentation? I thought lagering was chilling and aging off the yeast which I do in corney kegs. I may be wrong but i don't claim to be an expert. I don't follow German purity laws either. I just make Pale lager type beer that I like and is way better (in my opinion) than the American, Australian and English "lager" pish in the supermarkets.

They are a cheap and effective device but like any diaphragm valve can be subject to failure. You are right they should be cleaned and maintained regularly. As a fellow engineer one of the principals in the use of equipment is to follow the manufacturer/retailer's instructions to avoid any pitfalls during the operation.
Anecdotal evidence as you would know doesn't cover what can happen, if it is a 50 to1 100 to1 or a 1000 to 1 chance of a diaphragm valve sticking for the sake of a piece of tube and some sanitiser it is surely worth eliminating any risk.
Lagering doesn't apply to the pseudo lagers and a week in the keg at 2C isn't lagering, I think having brewed the occasional Bohemian Pilsner and Baltic Porter traditionally exposes the difference of the pressure-fermented lager type beer.
But if you enjoy what you are making is all that matters.

I pitched a packet of S-33 yeast at 2pm on Tuesday. 8 hours later I had to switch out my 2L blow-off bottle for a 5L jug, as the bubbles/foam were almost escaping out of the bottle. By 9am the next day, fermentation was complete. I have NEVER seen anything like that and I have been brewing for over a decade.

Temperature will dictate the timeline of fermentation. Do you know what temperature you pitched the yeast at? It happened to me once with a porter took a while to become drinkable.

 

[Sadfield]

I pitched a packet of S-33 yeast at 2pm on Tuesday. 8 hours later I had to switch out my 2L blow-off bottle for a 5L jug, as the bubbles/foam were almost escaping out of the bottle. By 9am the next day, fermentation was complete. I have NEVER seen anything like that and I have been brewing for over a decade.

Quite possible with s-33. It's maltotriose negative so doesn't bother with the more complex sugars at the end of fermentation, that other yeasts slowly do. Secondly, it has a high alcohol tolerance, which it's suggests it's accustomed to quickly processing sugar in high gravity worts such as Belgian beers or Strong English ales. If your OG was in the mid 40s or lower, then it's an easy day's work for S-33. More so if you pitched on the high side.

 

[phildo79]

They are a cheap and effective device but like any diaphragm valve can be subject to failure. You are right they should be cleaned and maintained regularly. As a fellow engineer one of the principals in the use of equipment is to follow the manufacturer/retailer's instructions to avoid any pitfalls during the operation.
Anecdotal evidence as you would know doesn't cover what can happen, if it is a 50 to1 100 to1 or a 1000 to 1 chance of a diaphragm valve sticking for the sake of a piece of tube and some sanitiser it is surely worth eliminating any risk.
Lagering doesn't apply to the pseudo lagers and a week in the keg at 2C isn't lagering, I think having brewed the occasional Bohemian Pilsner and Baltic Porter traditionally exposes the difference of the pressure-fermented lager type beer.
But if you enjoy what you are making is all that matters.

Temperature will dictate the timeline of fermentation. Do you know what temperature you pitched the yeast at? It happened to me once with a porter took a while to become drinkable.

Pitched at around 25c. OG was 1.068. I added coffee grounds and beans to the serving keg. First few pours (maybe a pints worth) were brown and opaque, like a cup of coffee with not too much milk in it. During transfer, I stopped it pretty quickly when it hit the trub. Coffee beans (bagged) wouldn't turn a beer murky, right? I've made beer with coffee before, albeit not beans, and never had this issue.

 

[foxy]

Pitched at around 25c. OG was 1.068. I added coffee grounds and beans to the serving keg. First few pours (maybe a pints worth) were brown and opaque, like a cup of coffee with not too much milk in it. During transfer, I stopped it pretty quickly when it hit the trub. Coffee beans (bagged) wouldn't turn a beer murky, right? I've made beer with coffee before, albeit not beans, and never had this issue.

What was your FG?

 

[phildo79]

What was your FG?

1.021

 

[foxy]

1.021

While being turbid the FG seems to indicate it isn't an infection, did you smell and taste it? Maybe just going to take time to settle and clear.

 

[phildo79]

Smells like a lovely coffee stout. Taste is pretty good too. Huge coffee hit. It was not fully carbonated and looked weird AF. It honestly looked like someone had just poured a milky coffee into a glass. OG was supposed to be 1.062 (it was 1.068) and FG was supposed to be 1.014 (it was 1.021). This meant the ABV ended up pretty much what I was shooting for. And with no yeast activity in 36 hours, I racked it.

 

[phildo79]

It has cleared considerably and it tasting rather nice. Unbelievable turnaround time for this brew; less than a week.

 

[Larse]

I have something similar with an Oat Stout. Pitched the yeast (S-04 hydrated for about an hour in cooled wort) at 7:30pm on Saturday at 20°. Raised it up to 22° overnight to kick start fermentation and then lowered it back to 20° the next morning. Not even two days later and it's down to 1.017 (from 1.045). Have it under ~7psi now to carbonate and will leave like that until it reaches the target of 1.011. But it's pretty nearly done in less than two days. Graph from my Graviator has the X-Axis in hours.