Using beer gas with a corny keg.

[bez]

I was about to start a post about something similar, saw this so thought I'd jump right in, unfortunately not with advice but more questions.

So... I've been sat on a stout for a few weeks now, fermenting away nicely, probably didn't have enough yeast, shoulda made a starter, anyway.... it's a mocca stout, has some 85% fancy chocolate in and a nice jug of freshly ground espresso added too, grain used included some chocolate, roasted barley and a cafe grain, this has created a nice tasting brew, planning to add some vanilla at the end.

My plan all along was to keg this batch using beer gas, 70% nitro, 30% Co2. I've been spending quite a bit whilst locked down and bored browsing beer sites on equipment, this includes a 19ltr corny keg, Co2 and nitro regulators, small 5ltr growler setup, even bought a new fridge to play with lager fermenting and keg storage, picked up 2 x 10ltr gas bottles yesterday so I can do nitro and force carb IPA's with C02... if my wife finds out how much I'm spending I'm in trouble.

The thing is, after buying all this stuff, I have to admit not really knowing what I should be doing. I've got force carbing IPA's in my head okay, but I have to admit to not being too sure what I do with the Stout. I'm thinking just keg it, chill, pressurise with nitro beer gas and pour, but something is telling me I don't have it quite right, not sure what it is, just a niggle, maybe I've read too much or watched too many you tube videos, I might be over thinking things, so any comments would be appreciated.

If there is anybody there who does this a lot, please give me a steer.

Cheers.

Don’t know much but there is a special tap.

 

[bez]

T

Ah, apologies. I wasn't doing a good job of easily explaining "partial pressure". But not bad for someone described as SMI* (UK translation please if you look it up, the American translation would seem to label me as a homicidal maniac!).

The nitrogen won't displace the CO2. Partial pressure dictates that each component operates individually in the proportion it is available at. So replacing 45PSI(A) of CO2 with 45PSI(A) of 50/50 mixed gas will be the same as replacing it with 22.5PSI(A) CO2 (i.e. 50% of 45PSI).

And it won't happen immediately 'cos the 100% CO2 in the keg has to be slowly diluted with the mixed gas as beer is drawn out. A job that can never be completed.


* "How can that be and write a post with all that math in it?" you might ask. Very complex subject and if you were to think like that it will be prejudice ideas inserting themselves without you thinking about it. <End of Public Information Bulletin>.

thanks peebee

 

[Frog 1]

That is pretty much what I did just finished the kegarator. Great minds.

I like it, nice idea on the door, I was thinking of a tower tap system on the top, have been thinking how to make one with a quick release fitting, might have to have that made tho (got a few mates in engineering), but your idea might make that much simpler.

I think I'll just keg the stout, chill it down and force nitrogenate it and see what happens. Also going to try that with the baby keg and use a C02 bulb as delivery pressure so it's mobile, that way I can have a trip out to the bottom of the garden and pretend I'm in a country pub. Cant find any nitro bulbs that have a thread so Co2 will have to do.

 

[bez]

I like it, nice idea on the door, I was thinking of a tower tap system on the top, have been thinking how to make one with a quick release fitting, might have to have that made tho (got a few mates in engineering), but your idea might make that much simpler.

I think I'll just keg the stout, chill it down and force nitrogenate it and see what happens. Also going to try that with the baby keg and use a C02 bulb as delivery pressure so it's mobile, that way I can have a trip out to the bottom of the garden and pretend I'm in a country pub. Cant find any nitro bulbs that have a thread so Co2 will have to do.

I think I need to optimise my experience in this system and have a read around before using beer gas. When you say nitro. Do you mean beer gas or just nitrogen

 

[Frog 1]

I think I need to optimise my experience in this system and have a read around before using beer gas. When you say nitro. Do you mean beer gas or just nitrogen

Beer gas, so 70% nitro 30% Co2, I think the concept is still to force carbonate, but this will mean the beer gets a small amount of Co2 which will give it a little fizz and the nitro will be suspended but released on pouring creating the nice creamy head, that's what I understand so far anyway, I have bought a stout faucet so that should help, but I just need to get my method correct, with all the talk of ratios etc., I have to admit to being a little hesitant, don't want to mess up the beer and don't want to blow the house up either, in that order

 

[bez]

Beer gas, so 70% nitro 30% Co2, I think the concept is still to force carbonate, but this will mean the beer gets a small amount of Co2 which will give it a little fizz and the nitro will be suspended but released on pouring creating the nice creamy head, that's what I understand so far anyway, I have bought a stout faucet so that should help, but I just need to get my method correct, with all the talk of ratios etc., I have to admit to being a little hesitant, don't want to mess up the beer and don't want to blow the house up either, in that order

I think I get it. Is it because you have 100 % CO2

Beer gas, so 70% nitro 30% Co2, I think the concept is still to force carbonate, but this will mean the beer gets a small amount of Co2 which will give it a little fizz and the nitro will be suspended but released on pouring creating the nice creamy head, that's what I understand so far anyway, I have bought a stout faucet so that should help, but I just need to get my method correct, with all the talk of ratios etc., I have to admit to being a little hesitant, don't want to mess up the beer and don't want to blow the house up either, in that order

Hi. Could it be this. Say you have your keg gassed up to 20psi. This will allow a certain amount of CO2 to dissolve at a specific temp they talk about gas volumes. To get the guiness effect you have to have higher pressure I think on a special tap. So if you used just CO2 at a higher pressure it would potentially just dissolve. However if you used a higher pressure of dinitrogen it would dissolve but merely increase the pressure. Still not sure. Lol

 

[bez]

Beer gas, so 70% nitro 30% Co2, I think the concept is still to force carbonate, but this will mean the beer gets a small amount of Co2 which will give it a little fizz and the nitro will be suspended but released on pouring creating the nice creamy head, that's what I understand so far anyway, I have bought a stout faucet so that should help, but I just need to get my method correct, with all the talk of ratios etc., I have to admit to being a little hesitant, don't want to mess up the beer and don't want to blow the house up either, in that order

So then we have a high pressure but no increase carbonation. However when the special tap is reached there is a increased pressure which forces the nitrogen into solution. This when is poured into a glass. The nitrogen is lost to the atmosphere first leaving a partially carbonated drink. The nitrogen bubbles must give that cascade and tight head.

 

[foxy]

Go to the chemist get yourself a syringe and give your stout a squirt, don't do it with a highly carbonated stout but, you will have it everywhere.
Draw some air and a little beer into the syringe and blast it back into the the glass.
http://publin.ie/2015/giving-guinness-a-head-with-a-syringe-how-it-used-to-be-done/

 

[bez]

I think I get it. Is it because you have 100 % CO2

Hi. Could it be this. Say you have your keg gassed up to 20psi. This will allow a certain amount of CO2 to dissolve at a specific temp they talk about gas volumes. To get the guiness effect you have to have higher pressure I think on a special tap. So if you used just CO2 at a higher pressure it would potentially just dissolve. However if you used a higher pressure of dinitrogen it would dissolve but merely increase the pressure. Still not sure. Lol

Should say not dissolve but merely increase the pressure

 

[peebee]

… However when the special tap is reached there is a increased pressure which forces the nitrogen into solution. This when is poured into a glass. The nitrogen is lost to the atmosphere first leaving a partially carbonated drink. The nitrogen bubbles must give that cascade and tight head.

You are over-thinking it. There's no real increase in pressure (geometry can't do that, you need mechanical intervention, like a pump say) and the nitrogen is either already in solution, or powering the beer through the pipes. But you later mention "just CO2 at a higher pressure", which is a good point. Just CO2 at high pressure will result in more CO2 in the stout which will then suffer flavour-wise from the acidic effect. Co2 at low pressure will not be able to force beer past the "restrictor plate" if a stout faucet is used.

CO2 at low-pressure will create a tight head and cascade effect. It is a myth that nitrogen alone does it. At this sort of low pressure it can be served from a hand-pump! But that may make hardened keg-heads blanch!

So the "Guinness effect" uses mixed gas because it needs the low pressure CO2 ("partial pressure" remember) so as not to mar flavour and mouth-feel, and the high pressure nitrogen so some can dissolve (when temperature is low enough) and so as to provide the oomph to push the beer through the stout faucet (the "restrictor plate" forces gases to "break out" of solution).



A while ago (on this forum? I forget) I was explaining that mixed gas was not needed to serve a Guinness clone. The "nitro" Guinness was just emulating what Guinness used to do with "natural conditioning". But "Real" Guinness required skill to serve it, at it wasn't getting that skill in many places. "Nitro" Guinness allows bar staff the time to practice tossing beer glasses about in ever more convoluted ways, and other very essential tasks like that

 

[bez]

You are over-thinking it. There's no real increase in pressure (geometry can't do that, you need mechanical intervention, like a pump say) and the nitrogen is either already in solution, or powering the beer through the pipes. But you later mention "just CO2 at a higher pressure", which is a good point. Just CO2 at high pressure will result in more CO2 in the stout which will then suffer flavour-wise from the acidic effect. Co2 at low pressure will not be able to force beer past the "restrictor plate" if a stout faucet is used.

CO2 at low-pressure will create a tight head and cascade effect. It is a myth that nitrogen alone does it. At this sort of low pressure it can be served from a hand-pump! But that may make hardened keg-heads blanch!

So the "Guinness effect" uses mixed gas because it needs the low pressure CO2 ("partial pressure" remember) so as not to mar flavour and mouth-feel, and the high pressure nitrogen so some can dissolve (when temperature is low enough) and so as to provide the oomph to push the beer through the stout faucet (the "restrictor plate" forces gases to "break out" of solution).



A while ago (on this forum? I forget) I was explaining that mixed gas was not needed to serve a Guinness clone. The "nitro" Guinness was just emulating what Guinness used to do with "natural conditioning". But "Real" Guinness required skill to serve it, at it wasn't getting that skill in many places. "Nitro" Guinness allows bar staff the time to practice tossing beer glasses about in ever more convoluted ways, and other very essential tasks like that

 

[parpot]

When I had a pub back in the early 90's the 11gallon Guinness kegs came with there own built in gas supply, this supply controlled the flow at the tap as well. In fact at that time if you didn't keep the Guinness in great order and the pouring flow rate correct they would stop supplying you. The rep used to call twice a year to check everything, but sorry I have no idea what the gas make up was/is.

 

[peebee]

I do know Guinness were messing with nitrogen way back in the 1950s (that surprised me!). But "nitro" Guinness was only available in Ireland for quite a while. I don't remember when "nitro" Guinness became available in the UK? Certainly not late 1970 (?), probably not 1980s (I do remember "widgets" appearing in cans - they contained nitrogen), but possibly by 1990s.

 

[Frog 1]

Well I'm currently cleaning and sanitising the kegs and will transfer the stout over when ready, I'm going to force the gas into the kegs over a few days and leave the beer to condition a little more, I'll then try the small keg to see what happens, I'll try to do a video so you can all see what happens, good or bad and I'll keep you posted. Stout faucet turned up today, just waiting on the adaptor to fit it to the keg and I'm ready to go, quite excited actually, spent quite a lot of money but a mans gotta have a hobby and this is a great one. Wish me luck and cheers everybody for your comments and help.

 

[bez]

Thanks. Food for thought.

Well I'm currently cleaning and sanitising the kegs and will transfer the stout over when ready, I'm going to force the gas into the kegs over a few days and leave the beer to condition a little more, I'll then try the small keg to see what happens, I'll try to do a video so you can all see what happens, good or bad and I'll keep you posted. Stout faucet turned up today, just waiting on the adaptor to fit it to the keg and I'm ready to go, quite excited actually, spent quite a lot of money but a mans gotta have a hobby and this is a great one. Wish me luck and cheers everybody for your comments and help.

good luck. Don’t forget the video

 

[Ashman]

Yeah excited to see the video.

 

[bez]

Ok. I’ve just bought the guiness type head fir my beer tap. I’ve used it just with CO2 not beer gas and you get a lovely cascade. Really pleased.

 

[Frog 1]

Ok. I’ve just bought the guiness type head fir my beer tap. I’ve used it just with CO2 not beer gas and you get a lovely cascade. Really pleased.

Sounds good, I'm getting impatient now, want to crack my kegs.

 

[Frog 1]

In anticipation of the grand unveiling, here are a few pics of the Mocca stout timeline. It better be good when it's opened

 

[bez]

In anticipation of the grand unveiling, here are a few pics of the Mocca stout timeline. It better be good when it's opened

In anticipation of the grand unveiling, here are a few pics of the Mocca stout timeline. It better be good when it's opened