Using beer gas with a corny keg.

[bez]

Hi. Tried to post a video but won’t allow

 

[bez]

Loo
looks good.

 

[stevey]

When I ran a pub, I used to use 70-30 for guinness and john smiths smooth, 60-40 for lagers and 100% co2 for cider and the post mix stuff. For homebrew I have only used 100% co2, at lower pressure (around 10 psi). The guiness and smooth use special sparkler nozzles (a bit like the inserts you can fit in your shower to save water), which diffuse the liquid and allow it to be mixed with air, making a creamier end product.
I occasionally brew stouts, but don't see the need to use different gas for dispense.

 

[bez]

When I ran a pub, I used to use 70-30 for guinness and john smiths smooth, 60-40 for lagers and 100% co2 for cider and the post mix stuff. For homebrew I have only used 100% co2, at lower pressure (around 10 psi). The guiness and smooth use special sparkler nozzles (a bit like the inserts you can fit in your shower to save water), which diffuse the liquid and allow it to be mixed with air, making a creamier end product.
I occasionally brew stouts, but don't see the need to use different gas for dispense.

Hi. Is 10psi what you use at every stage or just dispensing.

 

[stevey]

I use 10 psi at every stage, I only have one regulator to supply 3 kegs. I don't roll the kegs to force carb, I just leave it for around a week and it's fizzy enough for me. The only drawback I suppose is that carbonation is probably a little low in my lagers, but I don't really like highly carbonated beers.

 

[bez]

I use 10 psi at every stage, I only have one regulator to supply 3 kegs. I don't roll the kegs to force carb, I just leave it for around a week and it's fizzy enough for me. The only drawback I suppose is that carbonation is probably a little low in my lagers, but I don't really like highly carbonated beers.

Thanks.

 

[Frog 1]

Hi. Tried to post a video but won’t allow

Hmmm... thats unfortunate, I'll look into that, maybe post something to another site and link it here.

 

[Frog 1]

So my messing around with gases is mostly after doing my first stout, which I was very happy with from a flavour perspective, but after bottling, it didn't gas up that well, not that stout really needs much gas... anyway, I have been reading all sorts and that lead me to beer gas, so wanted to try kegging and using gas to create the good head, what I've read says the nitrogen gas is mostly for creamy head and mouth feel, apparently it actually tricks the brain into believing you are drinking something smooth and the small amount of Co2 creates the minor fizz, that's what I've read anyway. Also, I wanted to keg this batch as my inexperience meant I cocked up with the yeast, I should have made a starter but didn't so it stopped short, which made me worry I might have some explosive bottles if I went in that direction, so was a good excuse to buy the gear for kegging.

I tried buying gas bottles form the big boys (BOC/AirProducts) and they won't supply bottles on a deposit basis, they want to rent them on a daily charge, but I found a local firm that does do deposits, so the gas I have is one bottle of 10ltr pure Co2 and one bottle of 10ltr 70% nitro and 30% Co2, that's the one they call beer gas. The deposit per bottle was £50 and the gas was £30, but now I have the bottles it will just be £30 per refill. I did have to buy 2 regulators as the Nitrogen needs to handle higher pressure and the fitting is different, but again, quite a lot of outlay, but now I have it, they should last ages.

The nitrogen/carbonating is also done at 30 psi, the forcing it was probably just me being over enthusiastic, apparently I could just leave it for a week after pressurising but I wanted to give it a little cuddling, I've read I need to pressure it at 30 psi for a couple of days before I serve, then turn the pressure down to around 4 psi to pump it into the glass, so will see what happens, grand unveiling will be next weekend.

Really enjoying this chatter by the way.

Brewing tomorrow, trying a bit of a new england ipa and using wai-iti and wakatu hops in the hope it brings in a lime flavour to the beer, will probably bottle this batch and keg 5ltrs with Co2.

 

[peebee]

… The nitrogen/carbonating is also done at 30 psi, the forcing it was probably just me being over enthusiastic, apparently I could just leave it for a week after pressurising but I wanted to give it a little cuddling, I've read I need to pressure it at 30 psi for a couple of days before I serve, then turn the pressure down to around 4 psi to pump it into the glass, so will see what happens, grand unveiling will be next weekend. …

I'd also be interested! Have you read my "theory" post in this thread? #12. It would suggest carbonation at a pure CO2 equivalence of -1PSI. I'm not at all sure how much N2 would dissolve in that time, presuming you have had it cold? But 30PSI would push it through a "stout faucet" with its "restrictor plate".

I've never done it, but don't be disappointed if it doesn't work. Not working is what I'd predict, but like I said, I've not put the theory into practice.


I'd be a bit sceptical of what you were reading. "It actually tricks the brain into believing you are drinking something smooth" sounds all Mystic Meg to me. Carbonic acid (dissolved CO2) isn't smooth, it's prickly and, well, acid. Putting less in provides all the sensation of "smooth" you need, and with no input from Mystic Meg.

 

[Frog 1]

I'd also be interested! Have you read my "theory" post in this thread? #12. It would suggest carbonation at a pure CO2 equivalence of -1PSI. I'm not at all sure how much N2 would dissolve in that time, presuming you have had it cold? But 30PSI would push it through a "stout faucet" with its "restrictor plate".

I've never done it, but don't be disappointed if it doesn't work. Not working is what I'd predict, but like I said, I've not put the theory into practice.


I'd be a bit sceptical of what you were reading. "It actually tricks the brain into believing you are drinking something smooth" sounds all Mystic Meg to me. Carbonic acid (dissolved CO2) isn't smooth, it's prickly and, well, acid. Putting less in provides all the sensation of "smooth" you need, and with no input from Mystic Meg.

I've been reading all sorts so might have mixed things up a bit, not really worried if it doesn't work, but I'm optimistic, the nitrogen will not dissolve into solution, it will just be suspended and released when poured producing smaller bubbles that Co2 which apparently is what creates the effect, the Co2 should dissolve and produce some fizz but not too prickly I hope, that's the plan anyway.

Yes it's chilled, maintaining 4 degrees C. I won't be forcing it at 30psi through the faucet, that will be reduced to 4psi for that.

If Mystic Meg can create the beer I want, she's welcome

 

[Joust]

I've been reading all sorts so might have mixed things up a bit, not really worried if it doesn't work, but I'm optimistic, the nitrogen will not dissolve into solution, it will just be suspended and released when poured producing smaller bubbles that Co2 which apparently is what creates the effect, the Co2 should dissolve and produce some fizz but not too prickly I hope, that's the plan anyway.

Yes it's chilled, maintaining 4 degrees C. I won't be forcing it at 30psi through the faucet, that will be reduced to 4psi for that.

If Mystic Meg can create the beer I want, she's welcome

Yeah that's exactly what mine does.

I get a good amount of fizz, still. But not anything like some basic gassy pub lagers get like. And I get the cascade of bubbles rising up like in a Guinness and a nice dense fancy head.

I'd say there's a smooth mouth feel too. But I'm not sure if that's the gas I use or just how the beer is.

I use a different mix to you though.. mines only 40 percent nitrogen. But I chose that cos I want a bit more fizz.

 

[Frog 1]

Yeah that's exactly what mine does.

I get a good amount of fizz, still. But not anything like some basic gassy pub lagers get like. And I get the cascade of bubbles rising up like in a Guinness and a nice dense fancy head.

I'd say there's a smooth mouth feel too. But I'm not sure if that's the gas I use or just how the beer is.

I use a different mix to you though.. mines only 40 percent nitrogen. But I chose that cos I want a bit more fizz.

Cheers for that, making me feel a bit more confident. The "beer gas" as they call it was what I believed I needed after reading, but the gas dealer didn't mention anything else, he just called it beer gas, I could maybe ask for others as he can have it mixed to order I think, I'll see what this is like and then maybe get others.

 

[peebee]

I've been reading all sorts so might have mixed things up a bit, not really worried if it doesn't work, but I'm optimistic, the nitrogen will not dissolve into solution, it will just be suspended and released when poured producing smaller bubbles that Co2 which apparently is what creates the effect, the Co2 should dissolve and produce some fizz but not too prickly I hope, that's the plan anyway. …

You've been reading more "Mystic Meg" again.

Nitrogen will dissolve, it just needs a bit of "persuasion". The best way I could think of it (I'm no gas geek, but I don't believe in magic either - guess that makes me a bit boring?): There is very little nitrogen dissolved in *you*! Strap on an air tank and jump in some deep water. The pressure will be quite high down here which is forcing nitrogen from your air tank to dissolve in your body. Make a quick ascent back to the surface. The pressure drops and that dissolved nitrogen comes out of solution again. Notice you haven't got a head like Guinness, but it flippin' hurts and you might die - you've got the "bends".

That's why you introduce mixed gas (beer gas, or what ever they call it) into beer at high pressure (I think it was 32PSI 70/30 that was recommended for Guinness, not 30PSI?).

CO2 dissolves much more easily, but even at this pressure (30PSI of 70/30 mixed gas) you will have "Real Ale" levels of CO2 in the beer. Certainly not fizzy!


I wasn't going to wheel out this photo again (I don't brew stouts and porters often enough), but as further illustration:

Nitrogen cascade? Nay. This is served with pure CO2 at 3-4PSI from the tap it is sitting on - an Angram CQ hand-pump!

 

[Frog 1]

https://byo.com/article/nitrogen-draft-tap-projects/
Thats one of the articles I read that lead to my mini project.

Thanks for all the help.

 

[peebee]

https://byo.com/article/nitrogen-draft-tap-projects/
Thats one of the articles I read that lead to my mini project.

Thanks for all the help.

Thanks. Yes I guessed someone in the background was pumping out the Mystic Meg stuff. Wonder if Mr Whiteside is related to MM?

Hopefully you've consigned all that stuff to the bin.

Have fun.

 

[Burlyman]

In case you want to mix it up...

Suremix - a range of food-grade mixed carbon dioxide and nitrogen gases for the dispense of beer..
these mixed gases are widely used because they:

• give beer a creamier, longer-lasting head..
• allow faster dispensing
• avoid the need for complex electric pumps
• extend the life of slower-moving draught beers.

the range -

• Suremix 30: 30% carbon dioxide / 70% nitrogen mixture used for dispensing a range of stouts and ales
• Suremix 50: 50% carbon dioxide / 50% nitrogen mixture for dispensing ales and lagers
• Suremix 60: 60% carbon dioxide / 40% nitrogen mixture used for dispensing highly carbonated lagers and ciders.

 

[bez]

I've been reading all sorts so might have mixed things up a bit, not really worried if it doesn't work, but I'm optimistic, the nitrogen will not dissolve into solution, it will just be suspended and released when poured producing smaller bubbles that Co2 which apparently is what creates the effect, the Co2 should dissolve and produce some fizz but not too prickly I hope, that's the plan anyway.

Yes it's chilled, maintaining 4 degrees C. I won't be forcing it at 30psi through the faucet, that will be reduced to 4psi for that.

If Mystic Meg can create the beer I want, she's welcome

So I’ve had the bad cat red in the fridge for about six days and been drinking it all along. Yesterday. The taste changed to a really smooth hoppy taste. The mouth feel was very rich and mostly the head in the beer was very creamy. I had not changed the pressure at any point. Still around 10psi. I there was also a taste of something it took me an hour to work out what it was. Dandelion and burdock. Wierd. Anyway. Completely drinkable after a week. Very nice. Can’t taste the 8.6% alcohol.

 

[bez]

You've been reading more "Mystic Meg" again.

Nitrogen will dissolve, it just needs a bit of "persuasion". The best way I could think of it (I'm no gas geek, but I don't believe in magic either - guess that makes me a bit boring?): There is very little nitrogen dissolved in *you*! Strap on an air tank and jump in some deep water. The pressure will be quite high down here which is forcing nitrogen from your air tank to dissolve in your body. Make a quick ascent back to the surface. The pressure drops and that dissolved nitrogen comes out of solution again. Notice you haven't got a head like Guinness, but it flippin' hurts and you might die - you've got the "bends".

That's why you introduce mixed gas (beer gas, or what ever they call it) into beer at high pressure (I think it was 32PSI 70/30 that was recommended for Guinness, not 30PSI?).

CO2 dissolves much more easily, but even at this pressure (30PSI of 70/30 mixed gas) you will have "Real Ale" levels of CO2 in the beer. Certainly not fizzy!


I wasn't going to wheel out this photo again (I don't brew stouts and porters often enough), but as further illustration:
View attachment 26491
Nitrogen cascade? Nay. This is served with pure CO2 at 3-4PSI from the tap it is sitting on - an Angram CQ hand-pump!

Looks great

 

[bez]

In case you want to mix it up...

Suremix - a range of food-grade mixed carbon dioxide and nitrogen gases for the dispense of beer..
these mixed gases are widely used because they:

• give beer a creamier, longer-lasting head..
• allow faster dispensing
• avoid the need for complex electric pumps
• extend the life of slower-moving draught beers.

the range -

• Suremix 30: 30% carbon dioxide / 70% nitrogen mixture used for dispensing a range of stouts and ales
• Suremix 50: 50% carbon dioxide / 50% nitrogen mixture for dispensing ales and lagers
• Suremix 60: 60% carbon dioxide / 40% nitrogen mixture used for dispensing highly carbonated lagers and ciders.

View attachment 26501

Thanks

 

[Frog 1]

Okay so here it is, I'll try to post a video, it didn't cascade like mad but it did provide a loverly creamy head, tastes great, its a bit like roaster coaster but without the sweet taste, quite bitter from the coffee but not in a bad way, just got another 40 pints to sink and its done
Please excuse the Guiness glass.

Won't let me post the vid, doesn't like MP4 files.