The Coronavirus thread.

[Northern_Brewer]

is 2 meters indoors safer than 1 meter outdoors?

In general outdoors is so much safer than indoors, I'd take the 1m outdoors every time. It's a far from perfect analogy as SARS2 seems to be all about droplet transmission rather than aerosols, but it can help to think about the kind of situations where you'd be bothered by someone smoking. But in particular avoid places where people are singing/shouting loudly, or close contact face-to-face without masks.

As an example of how things are much better outdoors, you would have expected a spike in cases in Minneapolis in the wake of all the demonstrations there after George Floyd's death on 25 May (allowing for a suitable incubation period). There's maybe a slight slowing in the rate of decrease, but the demonstrations don't seem to have been a major source of infection :
https://www.health.state.mn.us/diseases/coronavirus/situation.html
Although things are not good in the US at the moment, what seems to be driving infection is the heat of summer in Texas/Arizona etc which forces people indoors, plus a cultural reluctance to obey government instructions to wear masks. Whereas eg Massachusetts has just had its first day without any Covid deaths.

 

[trueblue]

In general outdoors is so much safer than indoors, I'd take the 1m outdoors every time. It's a far from perfect analogy as SARS2 seems to be all about droplet transmission rather than aerosols, but it can help to think about the kind of situations where you'd be bothered by someone smoking. But in particular avoid places where people are singing/shouting loudly, or close contact face-to-face without masks.

As an example of how things are much better outdoors, you would have expected a spike in cases in Minneapolis in the wake of all the demonstrations there after George Floyd's death on 25 May (allowing for a suitable incubation period). There's maybe a slight slowing in the rate of decrease, but the demonstrations don't seem to have been a major source of infection :
https://www.health.state.mn.us/diseases/coronavirus/situation.html
Although things are not good in the US at the moment, what seems to be driving infection is the heat of summer in Texas/Arizona etc which forces people indoors, plus a cultural reluctance to obey government instructions to wear masks. Whereas eg Massachusetts has just had its first day without any Covid deaths.

Didn't that orange bloke with the funny hair say at the start of all this don't worry folks when the summers here the heat will kill it all off, guess he isn't god after all.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Didn't that orange bloke with the funny hair say at the start of all this don't worry folks when the summers here the heat will kill it all off, guess he isn't god after all.

Why even waste energy thinking about what he says about the science?

And in this case it was a reasonable assumption at the time (and is probably true for SARS2 to some extent), but as a Harvard professor of epidemiology pointed out in this article originally published in February seasonal effects are probably moot in the first year of an epidemic as the availability of unexposed victims is a much bigger factor than the temperature response.

Plus the fact that people go indoors in high summer is nothing to do with the virus' heat response.

 

[MyQul]

Just a thought; The pubs are opening on sat (in England). Will the breweries have had enough time to supply all the pubs? If not, what will people be drinking (ie pre-lock down slops?)

 

[Cheshire Cat]

Just a thought; The pubs are opening on sat (in England). Will the breweries have had enough time to supply all the pubs? If not, what will people be drinking (ie pre-lock down slops?)

They'll be crawling over broken glass for those slops.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

It'll be tight - after all government has still not yet formally rescinded the law that bans pubs from opening - but from what I've seen on social media, most small breweries have been brewing for at least 2 weeks or so (and some have had enough smallpack trade to have never stopped brewing in some form), whilst the big boys somehow knew to start brewing 3+ weeks ago.

There won't be anything fancy (apart from some properly-lagered lager and barrel aged stuff?!) but there will be beer.

You might have to watch some of the keg stuff though - some of it has reasonably long BB dates anyway, but there's certainly been some pictures on social media of what appear to be pre-lockdown kegs sporting new best-before labels. From a certain international brewer whose name is "Mud"....

 

[Falco]

Bit of hopeful good news amongst all the gloom?

"'I'm cautiously optimistic': Imperial's Robin Shattock on his coronavirus vaccine"

 

[Chippy_Tea]

Bit of hopeful good news amongst all the gloom?

"'I'm cautiously optimistic': Imperial's Robin Shattock on his coronavirus vaccine"

Thanks for posting Falco.

 

[kelper]

We all take a risk every time we leave our houses but we have the option to keep the risk low if we so choose you have decided going to the pub is a risk worth taking I sincerely hope its a risk you don't regret in the future.

Out of a population of 235,000 there have only been 375 cases in the Highlands. This is probably why I feel differently to those living in England.

 

[Shirley Bassett]

Infection rates: Coronavirus (COVID-19) in the UK

As quote in response to my previous statements.

30/06/2020 Scotland was 290/100k, England was 286/100k.
03/07/2020 Scotland 336/100k, England was 436/100k, up over 50%.

Deaths

Since 30/06/2020 Scotland have registered 4. England unfortunately many more.

There’s a cluster of cases (11) in the Dumfries and Galloway area, that has been jumped upon, and the lockdown has not been released on certain postcodes within that County. Leicester unfortunately has many more and the UK Government has taken 2 weeks to act.

I still maintain that Scotland are fairing better through this pandemic, and that Sturgeon, of whom I’m not a fan, has shown greater leadership qualities that Boris.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

I thought the idea was you book a table and you are allowed two hours to have a meal at a social distance not this -

It is "crystal clear" that drunk people are unable to socially distance, the chair of the Police Federation said as pubs reopened on Saturday.

It is "crystal clear" that drunk people are unable to socially distance, the chair of the Police Federation said as pubs reopened on Saturday.

Ministers had urged caution ahead of hospitality venues reopening in England after three months of lockdown.

John Apter dealt with "naked men, happy drunks, angry drunks, fights and more angry drunks" on shift in Southampton.

But police thanked the majority of people for acting responsibly as they enjoyed the night out.

Streets were packed in London's Soho district, with images showing revellers outside pubs into the early hours of Sunday.

The Metropolitan Police said "a small number" of premises closed early following advice from officers due to crowding, but the force added that there were "no significant issues" in the capital.

Devon and Cornwall Police received more than 1,000 reports, most of which were "drink-related".

In north Nottinghamshire, four people were arrested and several pubs decided to close after alcohol related anti-social behaviour.

While people were out in droves at thousands of venues, fears emergency services could be as busy as New Year's Eve appear not to have been realised.

But Mr Apter, from the Police Federation, an association for police staff in England and Wales, said: "What was crystal clear is that drunk people can't/won't socially distance.

"It was a busy night but the shift managed to cope. I know other areas have had issues with officers being assaulted."

Addressing concerns raised by Mr Apter, Health Secretary Matt Hancock said people had largely acted responsibly, saying the "vast majority of people are, I think, doing the right thing".

He told Sky News' Sophy Ridge: "Overall I'm pleased with what happened yesterday, it was really good to see people out and about and very largely social distancing."

Sir Simon Stevens, NHS England chief executive, told the BBC's Andrew Marr Show: "Pleasingly, we did not see last night the kind of scenes that people feared might be. It was the foolish few, but the sensible majority."

Rob Moore, paramedic at the West Midlands Ambulance Service, told BBC Breakfast it had been a "really average" night shift in his area.

"We were really prepared for a sudden upsurge in calls related to people being out drinking but it hasn't happened thankfully," he said. "Hopefully it's a sign people have heeded the advice and had a sensible night."

People in England are still urged to stay 2m apart, but the new "one metre plus" guidance means they can get closer if they use "mitigation" measures, such as face coverings and not sitting face-to-face.

Boris Johnson and government experts had urged people to stick to the rules to avoid creating a second wave of coronavirus, with chief medical officer for England Chris Whitty saying easing lockdown is not "risk-free".

The latest figures, released on Saturday, showed a further 67 people had died in the UK after testing positive for coronavirus, bringing the death toll to 44,198.

Dr Chris Smith, a virologist from the University of Cambridge, said that the majority of people are "responsible", but urged caution, citing cities such as Leicester and Melbourne, which have imposed localised lockdowns.

"I would remind people, have a look at what's going on around the world," Dr Smith told BBC Breakfast.

"We could easily lurch back in the wrong direction if we don't remain vigilant because this thing hasn't gone away. We've still got a lot of circulation of the virus in the country, it's just a lot lower than when we started."

In Leicester, streets were largely deserted as pubs and other venues remain closed after the city became the first to be subject to a local lockdown on Monday, following a spike in Covid-19 cases.

Restrictions on the hospitality sector remain in place in Scotland and Wales, while pubs have been able to open in Northern Ireland since Friday.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-53296689

 

[obscure]

For all the horror stories I hope these are the exceptions, as was walking past one of my local pubs where the landlady was outside ticking people off on a list, as you had to pre book, table service only etc.

I’m not currently going to the pubs but I suspect that outside a few hotspots most pubs will be like my local, if for no other reason then the potential risk to their licence for non compliance.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I thought the idea was you book a table and you are allowed two hours to have a meal at a social distance not this -

Chippy, I reckon Jonathan Swift got it about right, writing in 1711 :
"It is the folly of too many, to mistake the echo of a London coffee-house for the voice of the kingdom."

The fact that all the outraged press reports have had to use the same photos of Soho suggests that Soho was the exception not the rule. But stuff like "Police say there were 'no incidents of note' across Greater Manchester" doesn't get the clicks.

Even the article you quote is mostly about "police thanked the majority of people for acting responsibly...there were "no significant issues" in the capital..."vast majority of people are, I think, doing the right thing"...it had been a "really average" night shift in his area"

But a headline of "most people aren't idiots" won't get the clicks. Remember, a good article wants to make you angry or make you scared - don't let them do it to you.

Set against that your article has a link to one about an intensive care nurse going out for the first time after "weeks of 18-hour days from "hell", losing two or three patients a day, with no chance of a night out to release the tension". Would you deny her that? And more generally, pubs have a hugely important social role for big chunks of the community who don't have many other support networks. Never mind the economic/employment aspects.

Round us is pretty typical I think in that half the pubs are shut, but we did go out for a quick pint and it was exemplary, exactly by the book - I certainly felt safer than going to the supermarket earlier.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

And from Brum :

"A big thank you to all the bars and clubs, partners and especially the customers for making tonight's late shift an absolute pleasure. Long may it last. People enjoying a drink responsibly. No arrests, no assault, no drunken injuries for ambulance to deal with."

Bet that doesn't go in many headlines either.

 

[obscure]

Alas ‘most people behave sensibly and keep to reasonable restrictions in pubs and bars’ doesn’t have quite the same ring to it as ‘chaos and destruction in Soho” or something to that effect. I suspect that the one group disappointed that the reopening of pubs wasn’t marked by a literal sea of blood and glass shards where newspaper Editors.

 

[kelper]

I know people who go looking for photos of crowded beaches and pubs and then get angry.

 

[trueblue]

Chippy, I reckon Jonathan Swift got it about right, writing in 1711 :
"It is the folly of too many, to mistake the echo of a London coffee-house for the voice of the kingdom."

The fact that all the outraged press reports have had to use the same photos of Soho suggests that Soho was the exception not the rule. But stuff like "Police say there were 'no incidents of note' across Greater Manchester" doesn't get the clicks.

Even the article you quote is mostly about "police thanked the majority of people for acting responsibly...there were "no significant issues" in the capital..."vast majority of people are, I think, doing the right thing"...it had been a "really average" night shift in his area"

But a headline of "most people aren't idiots" won't get the clicks. Remember, a good article wants to make you angry or make you scared - don't let them do it to you.

Set against that your article has a link to one about an intensive care nurse going out for the first time after "weeks of 18-hour days from "hell", losing two or three patients a day, with no chance of a night out to release the tension". Would you deny her that? And more generally, pubs have a hugely important social role for big chunks of the community who don't have many other support networks. Never mind the economic/employment aspects.

Round us is pretty typical I think in that half the pubs are shut, but we did go out for a quick pint and it was exemplary, exactly by the book - I certainly felt safer than going to the supermarket earlier.

A few weeks back a beach a few miles from me was on the front page of several news rags making the place look crowded. Our local paper countered with photos taken the same day with a drone and although it was busy from the air you could see they were generally well social distanced. There was still problems with toilets etc. but the original photographer had gone out of his way to find an angle to please the sun,mail and other.

 

[dad_of_jon]

the danger with irresponsible reporting is that it could encourage people to do the same thinking if all those on the news/papers are not distancing why should I? - A: The media have wound you up and you have fallen for their trap. By not following sensible precautions and believing the media reporting to an accurate portrayal of the situation they are stupid X 2

 

[Chippy_Tea]

Wearing face masks is compulsory on public transport in England, Scotland and Northern Ireland so i don't see why they shouldn't be mandatory for people going into shops i would not mind wearing one as long as everyone else was also wearing one.


Boris Johnson has said people in England "should be wearing" face coverings inside shops to help prevent the spread of coronavirus.

The prime minister said the government would decide in the next few days if "tools of enforcement" were needed.

The comments follow cabinet minister Michael Gove telling the BBC on Sunday that coverings should not become mandatory in shops in England.

Labour has demanded "urgent clarity" from the government on the issue.

And the boss of Waterstones bookstores, James Daunt, said it "would not be right" to ask shop workers to "police" any new policy.

Masks and other face coverings are worn to help prevent wearers spreading coronavirus, rather than catching it.

Currently, they are compulsory on public transport in England, Scotland and Northern Ireland - with the Welsh government set to enforce the same measure from 27 July.

In Scotland, coverings are also mandatory in shops, but not elsewhere in the UK - and critics have complained that the situation in England needs to be made easier for the public to understand.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-53388444

 

[Cheshire Cat]

Left hand not knowing what the right are doing