The best way to bottle under pressur

[SeanPM]

My first post and a noob so go easy on me.

I've ordered a fermzilla. Reason - I wasnt to be able to make decent lagers at room temps under pressure. I can control my lagering temp environment... but not my fermentation temps as much (space restricted)

I'm collecting a Grainfather G30 this week. I'm a gadget man and once I decided I wanted an AIO system, there was only one outcome.

I got a nice little freezer. Hooked it up to my own DIY tem controller. It was all going so well. And then...

The PROBLEM

90% of what I make will be gifted to people. I don't drink too much these days (part of the reason I want to get into homebrewing lager is because I want to focus in on quality and learn some zen like patience). I can't corny keg it all. I don't have the time or the money or the space. I could maybe get away with a couple of kegs for storage but I certainly can't lager in them.

But my main collection method will have to bottles. I will likely also do the lagering in bottles (although I CAN fit one of those cheap pressure barrels in my lagering freezer, probably a few mini kegs). But at the end of the day, it needs to end up in bottles to gift (so still needs to taste good by Christmas!)

So the big question is what is the best way to get beer out of fermzilla and into bottles with minimum exosure to oxygen and minimum fizz. Kegland says buy one of their Beer Guns
https://brewkegtap.co.uk/products/bottle-filler-beer-gun-kit?variant=39507212730449
But also explicitly state it will probably make a right old mess.

Is a counter pressure filler going to be any different? They look complicated and annoying?

I've seen talk of using secondary containers as part of bottling... but I don't really see how it eliminates my problems. Does it?

TL;DR Creating lager under pressure... have to use bottles... want to maximise shelf life... what's the best/not ridiculously complex/expensive/messy/space consuming solution?

Thanks

 

[DocAnna]

Hi and welcome to the forum!
Lager does not have the same need for fastidious oxygen exposure cautions as some other styles Ie it doesn’t matter quite so much about its exposure to oxygen when transferring it from from fermenter into bottles.

If you plan on transferring already carbonated lager from a pressure fermenter than you are going to need a counterpressure filler. This will require a CO2 cylinder and associated connections and is not in the slightest bit space saving. It does seem quite a complicated piece of equipment, but once you get the hang of it it’s actually quite quick to use and in many ways I prefer using a counterpressure filler to standard filling bottles.

It also means you can cap on foam if you really want to exclude oxygen. However your biggest limitation is going to be that you’re not going to be able to chill your carbonated beer while it is in your pressure fermenter which makes counterpressure filling challenging at the very least as it is likely to foam a lot.

I recommend that you consider using a standard bottle wand filler and don’t try to carbonated the beer in the fermenter much. Top up the bottles with a measured amount of glucose solution. I suggest not using glucose/dextrose powder because it will cause loss of residual carbonation due to the nucleation points and foam very quickly. Your lager will contain adequate residual yeast to ferment the sugar and carbonate in the bottle. If you really want to be assured of sufficient carbonation in the bottle you can always add some F2 yeast to your glucose solution, but most people don’t bother with that.

Your best bet is going to be a gumtree search for a fridge you can adapt and put your fermenter/s in. That will expand your option a lot.
I hope that helps.

 

[Moorbs]

I've also just ordered a fermzilla and I've gone for a kegland nukatap counter pressure filler. You can get them cheapish on aliexpress. You'll need a fridge or a chiller attachment for the fermzilla (£20 plus fittings and a chiller or maybe ice water and a pump?)

I'm gonna buy a cheap fridge and stick it in my shed then ferment lager under pressure at room temp and cold crash/ force carbonate it at the end

 

[SeanPM]

Hi and welcome to the forum!
Lager does not have the same need for fastidious oxygen exposure cautions as some other styles Ie it doesn’t matter quite so much about its exposure to oxygen when transferring it from from fermenter into bottles.

If you plan on transferring already carbonated lager from a pressure fermenter than you are going to need a counterpressure filler. This will require a CO2 cylinder and associated connections and is not in the slightest bit space saving. It does seem quite a complicated piece of equipment, but once you get the hang of it it’s actually quite quick to use and in many ways I prefer using a counterpressure filler to standard filling bottles.

It also means you can cap on foam if you really want to exclude oxygen. However your biggest limitation is going to be that you’re not going to be able to chill your carbonated beer while it is in your pressure fermenter which makes counterpressure filling challenging at the very least as it is likely to foam a lot.

I recommend that you consider using a standard bottle wand filler and don’t try to carbonated the beer in the fermenter much. Top up the bottles with a measured amount of glucose solution. I suggest not using glucose/dextrose powder because it will cause loss of residual carbonation due to the nucleation points and foam very quickly. Your lager will contain adequate residual yeast to ferment the sugar and carbonate in the bottle. If you really want to be assured of sufficient carbonation in the bottle you can always add some F2 yeast to your glucose solution, but most people don’t bother with that.

Your best bet is going to be a gumtree search for a fridge you can adapt and put your fermenter/s in. That will expand your option a lot.
I hope that helps.

This is great info. Thanks. Unfortunately, I’ve got one space for fridge/freeze which is taken for lagering. I could potentially lift my lagering lager out and put my fermzilla in to crash the temp.

 

[SeanPM]

I've also just ordered a fermzilla and I've gone for a kegland nukatap counter pressure filler. You can get them cheapish on aliexpress. You'll need a fridge or a chiller attachment for the fermzilla (£20 plus fittings and a chiller or maybe ice water and a pump?)

I'm gonna buy a cheap fridge and stick it in my shed then ferment lager under pressure at room temp and cold crash/ force carbonate it at the end

What’s this chiller attachment? Mind sending me a link?

 

[SeanPM]

I've also just ordered a fermzilla and I've gone for a kegland nukatap counter pressure filler. You can get them cheapish on aliexpress. You'll need a fridge or a chiller attachment for the fermzilla (£20 plus fittings and a chiller or maybe ice water and a pump?)

I'm gonna buy a cheap fridge and stick it in my shed then ferment lager under pressure at room temp and cold crash/ force carbonate it at the end

You mean one of these: Temp Twister - Fermzilla heating and cooling coil

So you're planning to cool the fermentation as much as possible before bottling with the counter pressure filler?

How *cold do you need to get the beer to remove foaming issues? Assume pretty cold!

 

[Moorbs]

You mean one of these: Temp Twister - Fermzilla heating and cooling coil

So you're planning to cool the fermentation as much as possible before bottling with the counter pressure filler?

How *cold do you need to get the beer to remove foaming issues? Assume pretty cold!

Yes, that is the cooling coil I was talking about, but I don't plan to use one myself. It's just an alternative to a fridge which would use up a lot less space (the size of a small glycol chiller) but it's more expensive than the fridge method unless you can find a good deal on a used chiller.

You'll want pressurised beer to be fridge temperature when you pressure transfer to prevent foaming. Somewhere around 1-5c or at least as cool as you can get it.

 

[SeanPM]

Thanks. I think I'm just going to have to dual purpose my lager fridge for a fermzilla temp crasher. I'll just have to time it so lagering period ends on bottling day. Remove whatever is in lager fridge, store, stick fermizilla in and crash temp. Bottle, Lager. Rinse, wash, repeat.

What do you make of these? iTap for Crown Cap Bottle

See they have them on ali express too. Same theory as the nukatap, just a different package?

 

[SeanPM]

and don’t try to carbonated the beer in the fermenter much. Top up the bottles with a measured amount of glucose solution.

The intention is to take advantage of fermenting under pressure to create decent lagers at rooms temps. I don't see how I can ferment under and pressure and avoid carbonating the beer too much? :/

 

[Moorbs]

Thanks. I think I'm just going to have to dual purpose my lager fridge for a fermzilla temp crasher. I'll just have to time it so lagering period ends on bottling day. Remove whatever is in lager fridge, store, stick fermizilla in and crash temp. Bottle, Lager. Rinse, wash, repeat.

What do you make of these? iTap for Crown Cap Bottle

See they have them on ali express too. Same theory as the nukatap, just a different package?

That iTap looks like a better solution than the nukatap. You have to purge, fill, then remove and cap with the nukatap so there's an opportunity for oxygen to get in. Bit out of my price range though. Maybe try and find some reviews or videos on it to check it performs well.

 

[DocAnna]

The intention is to take advantage of fermenting under pressure to create decent lagers at rooms temps. I don't see how I can ferment under and pressure and avoid carbonating the beer too much? :/

The pressure for 2.5 vol for carbonation at room temp of 21 is going to be near 30psi, ie pretty high. Pressure fermentation for a lager typically is quoted as 5 upto 15psi. 5psi is about 1 vol CO2 at room temp, or about the same 'fizz' as a cask ale. This sort of level you'll likely being ok trying to bottle so long as you don't add granulated sugar. You'd probable get away with 1.5 vols ie 12 psi if your bottles are cold and a counterpressure filler but that's a guess on my part. It's always going to be a challenge filling a bottle with carbonated beer if its not cold to start with. Not impossible and I can appreciate the challenge!

 

[SeanPM]

The pressure for 2.5 vol for carbonation at room temp of 21 is going to be near 30psi, ie pretty high. Pressure fermentation for a lager typically is quoted as 5 upto 15psi. 5psi is about 1 vol CO2 at room temp, or about the same 'fizz' as a cask ale. This sort of level you'll likely being ok trying to bottle so long as you don't add granulated sugar. You'd probable get away with 1.5 vols ie 12 psi if your bottles are cold and a counterpressure filler but that's a guess on my part. It's always going to be a challenge filling a bottle with carbonated beer if its not cold to start with. Not impossible and I can appreciate the challenge!

I'm going to pretend I understood most of that.

TL;DR = If I ferment at 12 PSI (1.5 vols), use cold bottles and counter pressure and I might be okay.

Europeans Lagers are around 2.4–2.6 vol, right? So you're saying I've still got some carbonating work to do after bottling? Am I right so far? So what's wrong with granulated sugar and what's the better alternative in this situation?

 

[DocAnna]

I'm going to pretend I understood most of that.

TL;DR = If I ferment at 12 PSI (1.5 vols), use cold bottles and counter pressure and I might be okay.

Europeans Lagers are around 2.4–2.6 vol, right? So you're saying I've still got some carbonating work to do after bottling? Am I right so far? So what's wrong with granulated sugar and what's the better alternative in this situation?

Yes that's right, trying to bottle room temperature beer with a counter pressure filler at 2.5 vols could be fun to watch , you might get enough beer in the bottle under pressure but it's going to foam a lot and lose some of that carbonation, with chilled bottles I guess it's possible you might get away with it, but that's just a guess.

The granulated sugar issue - do you remember the mentos and coke videos? To be fair it wouldn't be that bad, but the nucleation points all over the sugar would make the beer instantly foam over, so if you are adding sugar to bottle condition and the beer is partly carbonated then it's better to do so with sugar solution - use a 50:50 mix heated in the microwave to about 100 - well below boiling for that mix, then cool - keeps in a sterile jar for ages as it's too strong for yeasts or bacteria to grow in. I made a jar of it for cocktails ages ago, put the sugar and water in a jar in a low oven after the cooking one day sterilised the jar at the same time.

 

[Rwilts]

I have been using a fermzilla for a few months now and have experienced the same issues described above. I don't have temp control so I keg and put the keg in a old fermentation bucket of water , was fine up until a few weeks ago !. I have also wanted to bottle from the fermenter . I have used a carbonation cap t piece with a screw top on the side inlet. Add hose to the length of the bottle. This has allowed me to successfully fill screw top bottles at room temp with no foaming issues.i have purged with co2 , swapped hoses to a beer line from the fermenter and then controlled the fill by slightly loosening the cap. I have also used the same method to bottle condition . Skipped the co2 purge to leave the oxegen in bottle and then filed the same way. One bottle is full release the pressure by opening the side cap then unscrew top and seal the bottle .hope this helps

 

[Rwilts]

 

[hoppyscotty]

I have no issues filling bottles with counter pressure bottle filler and full pressure. Like what has been said before I'll keg the beer first and let it condition a bit in a fridge under pressure to achieve the right level of carbonation. If I've pressure fermented then there will be some level of carbonation so just topping up the carbonation with the CO2. Then I bottle using one of those cheap T-piece counterpressure fillers bottle straight from the fridge. The bottles are not chilled, just at room temp - but I usually pull bottled out of a bucket of starsan so probably slightly cooler than room temp, but don't seem to have had any issues. Works a treat.

I don't like the idea of those open to atmosphere beer guns for bottle filling. Just a fancy under pressure bottling wand practically. You can't go wrong with a cheap Ali Express counter pressure filler.

 

[DocAnna]

I don't like the idea of those open to atmosphere beer guns for bottle filling. Just a fancy under pressure bottling wand practically. You can't go wrong with a cheap Ali Express counter pressure filler.

My Ali Express counter pressure filler leaked gas, was super annoying to work with and was resistant to being fixed by tightening the compression fittings. I coated the whole middle piece in clear epoxy .. slight overkill I suspect but works brilliantly now.

A bit of follow up to my leaking counter pressure filler. It wouldn't come apart when I tried to even remove one of the joints, so I tightened the compression fittings and....it still leaked badly . However, I'm pleased to report that yesterday it worked just fine and while maybe not a joy to use, it was certainly less traumatic and an overall drier experience. This was following coating the joints in clear epoxy adhesive, which might be seen as a bit of a fudge fix but it will be permanent, won't crack and is resistant to sterilisation. It does lend the device a certain bio mechanical feel which is a bit odd, but hey it doesn't leak which is a win .

View attachment 49121
View attachment 49122
Anna

Just a note on this thread, that it is more controllable to take the gas supply for the filler off the same manifold as the keg so that the pressures are balanced. Then control filling using the gas release valve. The order of controlling the valves always takes me a while to remember when I set to a bottling session:

Taps/diverters on filler:

• Gas on, Gas release on low : purge bottle of air and fill with CO2 as best as possible
• Close gas release: pressurise bottle
• Switch to gas off, beer on: initial slow fill of beer to reach balanced pressure within a few seconds.
• Gas release on low: control filling of bottle with gas release
• Beer off once fill level reached, leave gas release on low for a few seconds.
• Gas release on open
• Remove filler

If not enough foam to cap on foam, quick dash of beer on to top of bottle to trigger foam.
Cap on foam.

Another point, have a bottle full of starsan to rest the filler in when needing to put it down, blu-tack as a ring around it's base is useful to stop the filler knocking the bottle over

 

[fireworkmaster]

Hi and welcome to the forum!
Lager does not have the same need for fastidious oxygen exposure cautions as some other styles Ie it doesn’t matter quite so much about its exposure to oxygen when transferring it from from fermenter into bottles.

If you plan on transferring already carbonated lager from a pressure fermenter than you are going to need a counterpressure filler. This will require a CO2 cylinder and associated connections and is not in the slightest bit space saving. It does seem quite a complicated piece of equipment, but once you get the hang of it it’s actually quite quick to use and in many ways I prefer using a counterpressure filler to standard filling bottles.

It also means you can cap on foam if you really want to exclude oxygen. However your biggest limitation is going to be that you’re not going to be able to chill your carbonated beer while it is in your pressure fermenter which makes counterpressure filling challenging at the very least as it is likely to foam a lot.

I recommend that you consider using a standard bottle wand filler and don’t try to carbonated the beer in the fermenter much. Top up the bottles with a measured amount of glucose solution. I suggest not using glucose/dextrose powder because it will cause loss of residual carbonation due to the nucleation points and foam very quickly. Your lager will contain adequate residual yeast to ferment the sugar and carbonate in the bottle. If you really want to be assured of sufficient carbonation in the bottle you can always add some F2 yeast to your glucose solution, but most people don’t bother with that.

Your best bet is going to be a gumtree search for a fridge you can adapt and put your fermenter/s in. That will expand your option a lot.
I hope that helps.

Sorry not full related to op's post but could you elaborate on which beer styles really suffer with oxygen exposure?
Cheers

 

[SeanPM]

Okay, thanks for all the advice. The general vibe seems to be "live a little". I've bitten the bullet and ordered a T this pressure filler from Ali. 27.9US $ |Kegland Nukatap Counter Pressure Bottle Filler Homebrewing - Beer Brewing - AliExpress

Can someone just give me a sanity check in terms of the other attachments I'll need to get it hooked up to the fermzilla? I have tube and adapter inertia at this point.
I about to order Kegland Mk4 Beverage CO2 Regulator and a nice big tank of CO2, but I figured I should get some extra tubing and adapters all in one go to save on shipping

 

[SeanPM]

My Ali Express counter pressure filler leaked gas, was super annoying to work with and was resistant to being fixed by tightening the compression fittings. I coated the whole middle piece in clear epoxy .. slight overkill I suspect but works brilliantly now.




Just a note on this thread, that it is more controllable to take the gas supply for the filler off the same manifold as the keg so that the pressures are balanced. Then control filling using the gas release valve. The order of controlling the valves always takes me a while to remember when I set to a bottling session:

Taps/diverters on filler:

• Gas on, Gas release on low : purge bottle of air and fill with CO2 as best as possible
• Close gas release: pressurise bottle
• Switch to gas off, beer on: initial slow fill of beer to reach balanced pressure within a few seconds.
• Gas release on low: control filling of bottle with gas release
• Beer off once fill level reached, leave gas release on low for a few seconds.
• Gas release on open
• Remove filler

If not enough foam to cap on foam, quick dash of beer on to top of bottle to trigger foam.
Cap on foam.

Another point, have a bottle full of starsan to rest the filler in when needing to put it down, blu-tack as a ring around it's base is useful to stop the filler knocking the bottle over

Thanks for tip. I'm a bit terrified of trying to figure this process/order out on my own. I'm hoping it will make more sense when I have everything in front of me (things generally do).