Something sort of Sake (Rice & Raisin Wine) 23.11.08

[BrewStew]

this is now fizzing away nicely... looks like the champagne yeast had some life in it yet!

i nearly **** myself this morning when i had a peer under the lid... some of the raisins had floated to the surface and had a greyish... almost... but not quite furry type stuff floating around them... i though NOooooooo! but i reckon it's the yeast gathering around the the raisins and turning to a weird colour from the raisin juices as there's no way in hell bacteria could've grown that fast over night.

 

[percival]

hehe, glad your brew is taking off nicely.

Your concern about floating raisins is exactly the reason why it must be stirred daily. Its not because of bacteria growth tho. but if you're not a stickler for sterilty then it could happen! The reason is to keep turning over the raisins so that the skins dont acetify and then pass on that most unwanted quality to the wine. I did my 2 gallon batch in a 5 gallon fermenting bin. which means plenty of air available for acetification, but i've never had a problem so the daily stir works, and your 3 galloon batch should be safer than my 2.

If you think about it then it can all seem like a nightmare eh! Stir ... introduce more air (raising acetification risk) and also the possibility of infection from airborne nasties, don't stir and dramatically increase the likelihood of acetification, but reduce the risk of infection. arrrgggg where does the balance lie! don't worry tho, thankfully lots of people have taken the guess work out of it and passed down their tried and tested recipes/methods.

 

[percival]

thinking about your concerns over the final product being too sweet for your tastes.... would adding some tea help? tannins, dryness etc? maybe balance things up a bit for you?

 

[BrewStew]

thanks percival that's eased my worries... especially about infection... i completely smothered my spoon (and hand just incase) in really strong Videne to be sure :lol:

 

[percival]

wow, that's thorough on the sterility front. i just wash and thoroughly rinse my spoon and hand, but as far as i'm concerned you can't be too cautious with preventing infection, so good onya

 

[MEB]

Great post guys-your both mental but dead cool.

 

[BrewStew]

:lol:

 

[percival]

:

i've been called mental for many things but never for brewing sake! maybe after drinking it tho .... :rofl:

the bloke who really got me into brewing was a much more mental brewer. He once made 'cock' ale. as in the bird not the ahem. This involved using a chicken carcass which was left to steep in boiled water until all the bits and pieces had fallen off the bones, then straining and using the liquid as extra body for an AG brew. It was pretty tastey too, no fatty deposits floating about on the surface and not a whiff of chicken smell or taste.

 

[percival]

uhoh you got me going now .....

after making probably a few tens of beer kits i decided to take the plunge and make a high ABV beer. I sought his advice for doing this and then got it started. i can't remember the details but the basics were use two beer kits for the added body the beer will need. Wine yeast (was probably one called formula 67 all purpose wine yeast- sadly no longer available, but may have been champagne yeast) and of course mobs of sugar, added gradually and the 'beer' sampled as each fermentation ended. Not surprisingly the fermenting kept going to bloody ages and each time it stopped the brew was as dry as a bone. Eventually when it stopped on a lethal tasting ABV we decided that in the interests of having something palatable we shouldnt add more sugar. So it was probably bewteen about 10 and 12 % ABV, but we never tested it or did any maths, apart from using our vast experience of sampling many beers down the pub and at festivals. It was still very dry tho. So we chucked in some golden syrup, figuring it wouldn't ferment, and then some more, etc etc until the beer had some sweetness to correct the dryness. Bottled it and put it away for a few months. It was pretty yummy! but we were actually careful and thoughtful and kept an eye on it. It was also fun. For someone who likes to brew a nice beer, but hasn't got around to AG brewing, and wants to be a bit adventurous, i would recommend doing a mental thing like this from time to time.

 

[BrewStew]

.

 

[steve_flack]

Don't you need Koji to convert the starch in the rice to sugars?

Link

 

[Wez]

P & BS - It would be better if topics such as that were not discussed on the forum

Could I respectfully ask that you edit your posts accordingly, thanks :thumb:

 

[BrewStew]

done

 

[percival]

also done

 

[Wez]

Many thanks guys, much appreciated :thumb: :thumb:

 

[percival]

Nice website for all you want to know about sake

http://www.esake.com/Knowledge/knowledge.html

so yep, this is far from authentic sake. but if you rummage about the website above you'll find homebrew sake is pretty much impossible. Berry calls it rice and raisin wine, i call it sake, cos while its not the real thing it will take something from the rice. not the sugars of course, and that is one of the main reasons i use an aromatic rice. yep basmatic isn't japanese rice either. but the end result, especially when served warm, is a pleasnat drink and anyone who has drunk sake before will probably name that brew in one.

 

[Taylor-MadeAK]

Greetings! Your clicks have summoned me! :rofl:

so yep, this is far from authentic sake. but if you rummage about the website above you'll find homebrew sake is pretty much impossible.

Homebrewing sake is not impossible. If any of you brewers would like to give it a try sometime, I'm always happy to answer questions. You can contact me through my website or just reply to this thread now that I'm subscribed to it.

for 3 gallons:
1.5 kg raisins
2.25 kg long grain rice (i use basmati)
4.5 kg sugar
2 Table-Spoon citric acid (i used one and some lemon juice)
yeast (i used to use CWE multipurpose, this time i used a white wine yeast, nothing special but can't remember what it was)
nutrient (i used marmite first time round and it worked a treat, this time used a bought in nutrient)
water 3 gallons.

stick all the dry stuff in your fermenting bin, apart from the stuff added in small quantities)
boil the water and pour it over everything and make sure the sugar dissolves. when its cool enough add the yeast, nutrient and citric acid.
pop the lid on and stir it every day for 3 weeks. then rack.

The rice is adding unconverted starch and nothing else to this brew, unless you're fortunate enough to get some wild critters on the raisins that can metabolize the rice without creating noxious compounds. I don't know what to call this, but it's not sake.

 

[steve_flack]

Without some form of amylase enzymes you might as well put sand in it as rice as all it will do is sit there and turn the liquid milky - you won't get any fermentable sugars from it. As rice is not malted it has no active enzymes....that's what Koji provides

 

[BrewStew]

If any of you brewers would like to give it a try sometime, I'm always happy to answer questions. You can contact me through my website or just reply to this thread now that I'm subscribed to it.

thanks!

I might give that a go sometime

 

[percival]

yep, me too, very interesting. now put your helmets on cos aswell as the cool post there is an arse or two about and i gotta let off some steam!

as i said at least twice on this forum this is not true sake, and its not called sake by Berry (from where i got the recipe from). However all but the most discerning sake drinker would identify this as sake when served warm, if they had drunk warm sake before. i Have no arguments with you over this, but would argue that you are telling me something that i don't already know, which seems to be what some are doing here. Lets not forget that brewing is fun, sake is rice wine, and this is a wine made with rice. I have not mislead anyone over this not being true sake. I have also mentioned the use of a fungus to break down the sugars in the rice in true sake. and i may be wrong about it being a fungus, it could be a bacteria. And we could also argue about the difference between a sugar and a starch, or whether there is any difference, or whether the difference is simply nomenclature, old system vs new ones, categories and subcategories. blah blah blah. I don't want to come across as bolshy or know it all, but the short way that people are are entering into this thread is unlike anything i've seen elsewhere on this forum, except for the helpful comment that was provided about brewing a true sake at home which is very interesting, but quite honestly i cant be bothered with fiddling about to within 2 or 3 degrees centigrade for doing an AG beer, or timing to within minutes, or EBU's etc etc, i cant even be bothered with correct terminology, but have respect for those who do so without being arsey about it. so my guess is that making a true sake at home would be beyond the effort i'm prepared to put in. and brewing is hard enough on one leg anyway! Not sure if its this thread or not but me and stew have already discussed how homebrew wine and beer can be very different beasts. Wine being quick and simple, beer being time consuming and complex in comparison. of course people could also get precious about this and compare beer kits to country wines, and so turn another reasonable, fun loving, agreeable discussion into a competition about brewing snobbery.

i would still add that an aromatic rice like basmati does do considerably more than sand, which does less than using a normal rice. So lighten up, get your heads outta your butts, enjoy your brewing, post useful stuff like you can brew true sake and here's a link to it, and when its already acknowledged that this is a fun and not a true brew then don't be an arse about it, any more than you would be about people saying they have a timmy taylor landlord clone/replica and then saying no it aint .... the clue is in the clone/replica. go on now tell me that a clone is identical anyway .... zzzzz

Stew, or anyone else tempted to give this a go as a winter warmer, if you enjoy the result then good onya, call it whatever you like. and if you dont then hey so what .. nothing ventured etc. As for me no-body who tried it yet has disliked it, and thats included people who have lived in the far east and drunk sake in the singapore hilton and the shangrila, not to be snobby about it, but to show how some can really get hold of the worng end of the stick. this recipe doesn't TRULY compare, but its pleasant and shares enough in common to please non-snobby types.

lighten up! hmmm .... think now i'm gonna do likewise having got my rant done. and thanks again for the heads up on brewing true sake at home. i'm sure there will be folks here who would love to try that. when i see the care they take over their creations i know they have the ability and will, if it can be done. now i'm gonna oggle my orange wine aperatif liquer type thing and i might even called grand marnier to pee some people off for fun! :grin: