Something sort of Sake (Rice & Raisin Wine) 23.11.08

[BrewStew]

today's the day for racking this.

i'll be honest, i've not been stirring it everyday... infact it's been more like once every two or three cos i kept forgetting. hopefully it's still ok though

i'll post some pics when the time comes :thumb:

 

[BrewStew]

thought i'd take a hydro reading and have a wee schnufter before sending it to the plastic demi.

it's down to 1.020 which is 11.8%ABV and with a yeast attenuation of 80.2%... it's still slowly fizzing away, and is still sweet though... a little too much for my tastes, so i'll rack it off the trub but wont add campden to see if it goes any further... it's still cloudy as hell so there should be enough yeast still in suspension to finish it off i'll add campden and finings to the demi next week, then bottle it just after xmas :thumb:

 

[BrewStew]

in the demi it's gone.. and within about a minute of putting the airlock on it's bubbling about once every 15-20 secs... so i guess it's still working it's magic... still, i'm feeling happier it's off the trub now

edit... you can't quite see the hydrometer floating around in there... but i plopped it in to keep an eye on things. it's actually not that hard to get out as you would think

 

[Aleman]

While I would expect there to still be quite a bit of yeast at work . . . you also have to consider that you have a lot of starch present as well . . . . take a sample and add some dilute videne to the sample . . . if it turns blue/black you have a haze.

 

[percival]

its going differently to all my previous brews. i wouldn't be worried about it tho. Perhaps add a little nutrient and maybe citric acid to get the yeast zipping along again.

 

[BrewStew]

While I would expect there to still be quite a bit of yeast at work . . . you also have to consider that you have a lot of starch present as well . . . . take a sample and add some dilute videne to the sample . . . if it turns blue/black you have a haze.

thanks for the tip Aleman... just did the starch test and it came out negative :thumb:

so more marmite and lemon juice your reckon Perci?

 

[Taylor-MadeAK]

The starch isn't water soluble and therefore wouldn't affect a hydrometer reading. In fact, it's largely settled out by now and got left behind in the primary. The reason the specific gravity is so high is because you're not using the amylolytic process that teases yeast into exceeding its alcohol tolerance, so the yeast is running into its alcohol tolerance limit well before all of the carbohydrates are consumed.

 

[percival]

i think proper nutrient would be preferable stew as it seems to have slowed right down with lots of sugar left. and probably more lemon juice or citric acid too, dunno how much would be too much so reckon add it a little at a time.

did it still taste ok when you racked it? even if it was sweet. what taylor says also makes sense, i guess you'll have some idea of how strong it is from a quick sip. if the yeast is now too drunk to keep fermenting then i guess you gotta get some higher tolerance yeast and make an uber strong brew. either that or dilute it, but that would run the risk of leaving you something with insufficient body. same could be said for higher ABV brew tho. Adding some grape concentrate would help to restore the body if it needs it.

there's also a lot of airspace in your demijohn. if it doesnt fill up with co2 pronto then you may get too much oxidation, not sure how fast that'll happen, or how much it will affect the flavour of your wine. As it's gonna be drunk young it probably won't be as much of a problem as for most wines which be left to condition for much longer.

 

[BrewStew]

hmmm i'm at 80% attenuation, IIRC the champagne yeast i use goes to about 75% :wha: cant remember now... but i'm pleased that it's still bubbling away. i'm not bothered by it's cloudyness at this stage. it was an absolute git to rack cos the raisins kept blocking my syphon. after all the faffing and sloshing i'm not surprised it's cloudy :lol:

well lets see how it goes :)

next time i'm gunna get hold of that stuff (forgotten the name of it) that helps the yeast go for the rice :)

i was at the brewshop today eyeing up the yeast nutrient but didn't bother in the end... wish i had now .. i got some tartaric acid though... how many teaspoons do you reckon?

i tasted it and it tastes delicious.. swmbo agreed too... i just think it's too sweet is all, but i had this inkling at the start if you remember Perci . you really get a hit off the alcohol though... made me cough slightly haha!

you know what, if it clears and drops another two points on the hydro i'll be happy. it's a nice drink but i dont think i could drink a whole bottle in a night :lol:

 

[percival]

i'm new to tartaric acid stew, so i dunno how much you should use. if it was me then i would just add a little at a time (one day at a time?) and see if speeds up the brewing. Same with nutrient. if it wasn't speeding up after a few days then i would guess its a yeast/alcohol tolerance thing if it tasted strong. Tho i wouldn't have thought it would be a problem with wine yeast as we have followed the same recipe and mine didn't turn out sweet with an ordinary wine yeast.

the main thing is that it still tastes good, so when it ferments a little more it should hit somewhere in the zone of your preferred sweet/dry range. A little more time won't do your wine any damage of course.

 

[BrewStew]

leaving it sounds like a plan. i'll give it a week and watch the hydrometer... if it's still slowly dropping i may give it longer. if not, it'll get finings and campden and i'll bottle it when it's clear

 

[percival]

it may well speed up all on its own anyway, there was probably plenty of live yeast left in your primary so you'll have to wait a while for the remaining population to grow again.

 

[Taylor-MadeAK]

next time i'm gunna get hold of that stuff (forgotten the name of it) that helps the yeast go for the rice

Kome-koji (rice with aspergilluz oryzae mold grown on it) or koji-kin (A. oryzae mold spores to make your own kome-koji).

 

[BrewStew]

thanks TMAK :thumb:

 

[Aleman]

Or Amyloglucosidase - Dry Beer Enzyme . . . If you do this hold back on the Sugar, as obviously the yeast will be able to utilise the sugars released from the rice . . . rather than the rice just being a flavouring component as it is here.

Champagne yeast will go well beyond 80% attenuation . . . and is quite happy at fermenting away at 18-20% alcohol . . . the trick to getting a high level of alcohol is to add the sugar in stages . . .

Make a syrup of 1lb of sugar in 1 pint of water and add this at a rate of 2oz per gallon per fortnight/4 weeks (as the alcohol goes up the yeast ferment more slowly) . . . you have to make sure that the previous addition has fermented out first though.

DO not add any more acid to the wine as it is NOT a yeast nutrient, and may well f*ck up the yeast metabolism . . . as well as unbalancing the wine . . .. If the wine is unbalanced IE very sweet and insipid . . . . and you want a sweet robust wine . . . then consider adding some acid to balance it . . . Ideally you would use an acid test kit from the LHBS to determine the current level and then add sufficient to raise it to where you want it . . . random additions of chemicals rarely have a beneficial effect . . . . Measure . . . check . . . add . . . often beats guesswork hands down and its repeatable

 

[percival]

Keep us informed BS

chances are your brew is just taking its time, its worked for me following the method you have used, and the more precise method i used this time (nutrient vs marmite and citric acid vs lemon juice). this forum offers everything from previous experience of this recipe to something like a full on scientific approach and many other angles between and beyond no doubt. i think my mint wine is doing something like your brew. it's slowly fermenting and sweet, i'm just letting it get on with it cos its still alive and kicking and tastes ok, but i am keeping an eye on it so that if it does stop i can intervene.

 

[percival]

i just uberly enjoyed another bottle of this tonight brewstew, and i'd love it if it worked out for you too. so far the fact that you say it continues to taste ok (tho sweet) is encouraging. so hows it coming along .... i'm intensely impatient now cos things should be coming together even if its slowly it should be getting there. c'mon tellme tellme teeeeeeelllllllmeeee whats happening, rofl

 

[BrewStew]

:lol:

it's dropped two points on the hydrometer since it's been racked. it's still cloudy as hell.

the airlock action is very infrequent and there's a nice thick layer of sediment, so i gave it a good swirl incase the yeast decided to go to sleep.

cant really get a taster while it's in the carboy so it's all guess work from now on :pray:

 

[BrewStew]

i think i'm gunna have to make a decision on this one.

it's settled out and there's feck all airlock activity. the hydro, if it's still dropping, is dropping VERY slowly. so my decision is one of two things:

1) stick campden and finings in now and serve it sweet for new years. hopefully it'll have enough time to clear to persuade my guests at new year that it's good to drink.

2) let it go some more, but dont serve it for new year, despite a fair few people showing interest in it.

it's looking like option 1 for me atm. at least it's another drink i can add to the "girly" menu i suppose as its too sweet for the male populace due to attend.

will give it till tomorrow till i make my decision as i've had 7 pints of smokeydokey and i'm in no way fit for doing anything that requires sanitising :lol:

 

[percival]

well as long as it still tastes ok it's not a waste of time.

Using lemon juice and marmite is kinda fun, i certainly enjoyed the novelty of that when i did it that way. Just a pity i couldnt remember how much of each was just right. i reckon its one or both of these in insufficient quantities that caused problems for the yeast. Apart from that we made the same brew. Forgetting to stir from time to time probably wasnt a problem, the raisins didn't go vinegary. if you give it a go in future then citric acid and proprietary nutrient should give you the non-sweet version. and if you do sake in a more authentic way then let us all know, with some funky pics of your specialist mold!