Should we be testing mash pH at 45 mins?

[Galena]

In this recent Video podcast, Martin Brungard suggests that measuring and more importantly checking for target pH stability early in the mash (5, 10, 15 mins) is not correct as it does not stabilise until around 45 mins. I accept that the graph he shows of this is correct but would have thought that the early mash pH has to be in the ball park figure to help with conversion?
Anyway, the point being we should not be expecting to hit target pH at 5, 10 or 15 mins so a slightly high pH is okay but we should be checking for target at 45 mins and then adjusting for the next brew if necessary.

It's quite a long video but the specifics of this start around 43 mins

 

[Sadfield]

Of course it's a long video, it's Doug Piper. There'll be at least 20 minutes of interrupting to say they're running out of time. I'm not sure how it'll be Simplified Water treatment when Brungard insists on treating mash and sparge separately.

Anyway, the point being we should not be expecting to hit target pH at 5, 10 or 15 mins so a slightly high pH is okay but we should be checking for target at 45 mins and then adjusting for the next brew if necessary.

This might be true if you were brewing with exactly then same grist each time. Given that most homebrewers often don't even brew the same style in succession, it would be difficult. Testing at 5' at least gives a small window for correction.

 

[Galena]

This might be true if you were brewing with exactly then same grist each time. Given that most homebrewers often don't even brew the same style in succession, it would be difficult. Testing at 5' at least gives a small window for correction.

I see what you mean, difficult to correct for the next brew if its different each time. If your target is 5.2 though and you hit that at 5 mins, does this risk it being too low by end of mash?
Personally I have always tested at 15 mins and never try and correct in brew, just keep a record for the next time I brew it, I think this is because it was a John Palmer thing when I first read How to Brew.
So for me I will continue to test at 15 but will be taking an additional reading at 45 and see how it compares.

 

[Clarence]

Why do we need to worry about this? Isn't it enough to get the water chemistry in the right ball park so that the malts will settle out within an acceptable pH range? I'm happy to reduce alkalinity to 40 ppm equivalent CO3 - - for most beers, more for darker beer, and then having corrected the mineral content and got the sulphate to chloride balance I want, I just chuck in the malt and let it do its business. Why do I need to know how spot-on my pH is and outside of what range does it really matter? Most of the conversion is done by the time 45 minutes has passed, anyway.
If I were worried about long-term stability of my beer sitting in bottles and cans on a supermarket shelf, it might be different.

 

[Galena]

Why do we need to worry about this?

Hey, don't shoot the messenger

 

[Sadfield]

Why do I need to know how spot-on my pH is and outside of what range does it really matter?

It must matter enough for you treat your water in the first place.

 

[Hazelwood Brewery]

I wouldn’t have thought there’s very much you can do to adjust pH and have any meaningful effect on the mash after 45 minutes if you find it’s off. Also, pH isn’t so critical that you need to worry about it being a little off target.

In the past I’ve brewed beers that had a mash pH below 5 and above 6. It still produced perfectly good beer.

I suspect like many things in brewing there’s a scientifically correct answer and there’s real world experience that tells us it really doesn’t matter as long as you’re in the ball park.

(I check mine at 20 mins)

 

[Clarence]

Hey, don't shoot the messenger

That wasn't my intention @Galena , I read and hear a lot about the importance of getting the mash pH right and, like the Monkees, I'm a believer, but I suppose I'm really wondering whether it's enough to trust the malt to do its job after adjusting the buffering effect of the water or whether we need to check. And then where do we stop? Do we need to check the diastatic power of each bag of malt, etc. Just a musing, Galena, on the sort of things I muse too much about.

It must matter enough for you treat your water in the first place.

Quite so, @Sadfield , but see above. Do we need to test it at a homebrew level as opposed to an industrial level. It's an interesting thread, my intention was not to dismiss it.

 

[Galena]

I wouldn’t have thought there’s very much you can do to adjust pH and have any meaningful effect on the mash after 45 minutes if you find it’s off. Also, pH isn’t so critical that you need to worry about it being a little off target.

That was one of the points of the video though, you reference it and adjust for the next brew (of the same recipe presumably).
In fact that is what I do anyway. John Palmer recommends testing at 15 mins and by the time it cools to room temperature to check pH it is too late to make it worth adjusting (his words) and I have always taken this as my preferred method.

 

[Sadfield]

Brewing is a series of processes that benefit from monitoring and control. Not doing it as a commercial venture shouldn't be a factor in that.

As an individual, not wanting to do it is fine, but why should it be questioned that it's unnecessary for the entire homebrew community? A common occurrence on this forum that actions of those who invest more time, care and effort, are viewed negatively.

 

[Clarence]

Brewing is a series of processes that benefit from monitoring and control. Not doing it as a commercial venture shouldn't be a factor in that.

As an individual, not wanting to do it is fine, but why should it be questioned that it's unnecessary for the entire homebrew community? A common occurrence on this forum that actions of those who invest more time, care and effort, are viewed negatively.

Keep your hair on. Nothing negative implied. Just wondering whether it's necessary. Monitoring and control is, of course done, but does that necessitate measuring pH at a point in the process when correcting the pH of that mash might be too late to make a difference? Of course data from one mash can be used to modify subsequent mashes, but as someone pointed out, home brewers rarely make a long series of the same beers. And then, how are you going to correct subsequent mashes, even of the same composition, unless all the other parameters remain constant.
Now then, I didn't say I didn't want to do it, I said that I hadn't done it because I thought correcting the alkalinity was sufficient. If that's not the case, then say so.

A common occurrence on this forum that actions of those who invest more time, care and effort, are viewed negatively.

I've never seen that anywhere on this forum. On the other hand, it's legitimate to ask whether a particular investment pays any kind of dividend.

 

[Galena]

but does that necessitate measuring pH at a point in the process when correcting the pH of that mash might be too late to make a difference?

As mentioned above, is measuring at any point in time already too late to be worthwhile correcting in mash?

 

[Sadfield]

Monitoring and control is, of course done, but does that necessitate measuring pH at a point in the process when correcting the pH of that mash might be too late to make a difference?

Might be too later also allows for not too late, which therefore necessitates measuring pH.

A common occurrence on this forum that actions of those who invest more time, care and effort, are viewed negatively.

I've never seen that anywhere on this forum. On the other hand, it's legitimate to ask whether a particular investment pays any kind of dividend.

Why do we need to worry about this?

The implication of worry by definition has negative connotations. As opposed to just doing something as it's good practice that facilitates correction IF required. Which would be the dividend.

 

[peebee]

As mentioned above, is measuring at any point in time already too late to be worthwhile correcting in mash?

I think that was intentional as well as arguing it needs 45 minutes for the pH to be meaningful.

But ... here goes, the secret for correcting mash pH any time after it's been mixed:

Step 1: Calculate the amount of addition to make the correction.
Step 2: Add the addition to the porridge that is the mash.
Step 3: Stir a couple of times, then stop.
Step 4: Test the pH. Test it a few times in different places.
Step 5: If no luck, return to Step 3. If you've reached this point earlier and you are getting bored, go back to Step 1.
Step 6: If you've found the correct pH ... STOP! Stick the lid back on, record the amended pH, and go away content!

No charge for this stunning tip. Actually, I think some others are using this method without consulting me first! Oh, and the sarcasm comes for free too!

 

[Galena]

But ... here goes, the secret for correcting mash pH any time after it's been mixed:

I think you are missing my point?

Source hazeandhoppy but there are many examples of this:

The difficulty with making any acid adj ustments in the mash is the actual timing of it. Mash pH cannot be accurately measured until 10-15 minutes into the mash. If you wait until this point to make any initial acid adjustments, it could actually be too late, as the conversion process is already underway. To get around this, we need to use brewing software to predict what our mash pH will be, so we can actually make acid additions before we dough in.

 

[Clarence]

https://byo.com/article/sorting-the-facts-a-deep-dive-into-mash-ph/This finally begins to make some sort of sense. It seems it's not the mash pH itself that needs critical adjustment for the mash to be successful, rather it's the value that is carried over to the beer pH which affects the flavour of the beer. See especially final section of above.
Measuring after 45 mins, then, still allows us to correct the wort, and hence the beer, pH to the required value.
Or have I misunderstood this?

 

[peebee]

I think you are missing my point?

Hmm ... I don't think so? Though perhaps I could have worded the first line (the only bit that was supposed to respond sensibly to your question) a little more accurately ... in that I was backing up the opinions picked out in that hazyandhoppy.com snippet but in my own sarcastic way (the sarcasm wasn't aimed at you or that hazyandhoppy.com article, although I do find it a bit weird aligning myself with "hazyandhoppy"!).

 

[Sadfield]

I think you are missing my point?

Source hazeandhoppy but there are many examples of this:

If you read later into the article they say "You can make further adjustments if needed by adding more or the remaining 20% lactic acid."

 

[Mayor of Simpleton]

I generally check pH about 10 minutes into the mash. I make my acid addition to the liquor before I mash in. It's more of a check for me and I don't worry about correcting low pH unless it's below 5.1

 

[The Baron]

No water expert but I calculate my additions before mashing add the required amount of Acid Malt or Lactic then take a measurement well into the mash( I bet I do it at 30 to 45 mins) knowing I am going to be there or there abouts. I then adjust any sparge water with Lactic so that the wort will be near to the 5.2 I aim for