New CML yeasts

[Clint]

The dry hop started as a mistake 5c as I left the probe outside the fridge when I dropped the temp from 35 to 19...I put the hops in and decided to set it for 14 a la Brewdog...by Friday it would have had 5 days.

 

[Drunkula]

Get it out, Clint. 2 days is enough even at super low temps, especially if you want it fruitier rather than more herbal. I'll post a link later if you're into stuff.

 

[Clint]

Yeah I read the Bruloshophy experiment on how long to dry hop...it's in til Friday as I've done a 12 hour shift today and got another tomorrow....not buggering about when I get in with bottling..
Depending how this brew goes with the Kveik...ie. not dreadful,then I'll do another with a shorter dry hop..but that will be when it's carbed etc.

 

[Brewnaldo]

I've been seeing loads of people say you can brew 34/70 at room temp at ale pitch rate and it's no different from brewing it at lager temperature with a lager pitch. I'll be giving the same thing a go with the Hell once the one that's doing a trad lager thing is done.

Marshall Schott from Brulosophy doesn't even do their fast lager method any more, he just uses the 34/70 like an ale.

What temp and how long you doing the dry hop?

Just so I get you correctly, are you saying that if I brew lager recipe with lager yeast but just run it at ale temps it will still produce a decent lager?

 

[matt76]

I've been seeing loads of people say you can brew 34/70 at room temp at ale pitch rate and it's no different from brewing it at lager temperature with a lager pitch. I'll be giving the same thing a go with the Hell once the one that's doing a trad lager thing is done.

Marshall Schott from Brulosophy doesn't even do their fast lager method any more, he just uses the 34/70 like an ale.

What temp and how long you doing the dry hop?

Everyone seems to be assuming that "Hell" is same/similar to W-34/70. Maybe I'm wrong but when I read the descriptors I wonder if it might actually be S-23, especially the references to Berlin.

In any case I'll be very interested to hear from you how Hell does at higher temperatures.

I've currently got a Baltic Porter in the FV fermented with Hell which has gone in a week or less from about 1.085 to 1.015 at 15degC or so. First time I've used this yeast but I have plans to try it in some more tame beers, probably starting with a Munich Helles.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I've been seeing loads of people say you can brew 34/70 at room temp at ale pitch rate and it's no different from brewing it at lager temperature with a lager pitch.

This is Fermentis' view : Rediscover the SafLager W-34/70 • Fermentis

It will never hurt to ferment at the lowest temperature you can easily manage for the first couple of days though.

Mangrove Jack M54 Californian lager is meant to be equally forgiving but floccs rather better, I've not used it myself.

 

[Drunkula]

Just so I get you correctly, are you saying that if I brew lager recipe with lager yeast but just run it at ale temps it will still produce a decent lager?

Yes! But with the right yeast. The 34/70 apparently does to the point where Marshall Shott from Brulosophy has even stopped doing his fast lager method and just uses 34/70 or variants** at 19c. Pilsners are his favourite style.

Read about the experiment that he did that suprised him the most here. And he says :

I’ve used L17 Harvest almost exclusively for my lagers over the last 6 months, fermenting it from 50°F/10°C to 68°F/19°C, and it’s outstanding! While a recent xBmt showed tasters could reliably distinguish between beers fermented with L17 either cool or warm, my experience is that warmer temps actually produce a cleaner, crisper finished product. So good!

Genus Brewing did a thing about warm brewing and said 34/70 is the way to go, and it's Logan's favourite yeast.

Everyone seems to be assuming that "Hell" is same/similar to W-34/70.

I've got no idea; this lager is my first real one. So eventually going from the current 13c to three times that is going to be interesting. I'll try it at 19c at some point after and hope there's enough of this one left to compare. I think I've got some really bad beer coming my way with the 8 way yeasts at 39c split, but it's only 1.5 litres each, and as I've said before : I neeeeed to know! I already know Kristalweizen is amazing at 39c and that's a win even if all the others are rank. It'll be interesting to see how the CML Belgian goes because it's pretty complex at normal temps. By complex I mean.... pffft, I'll grow to like it?

Mangrove Jack M54 Californian lager is meant to be equally forgiving but floccs rather better, I've not used it myself.

Nor me, but I'm writing that down. If I run that sucka hot and I don't blow chunks you'll get shared academic credit.

** had to look it up and it's the Weihenstephan strain.

 

[Brewnaldo]

Yes! But with the right yeast. The 34/70 apparently does to the point where Marshall Shott from Brulosophy has even stopped doing his fast lager method and just uses 34/70 or variants** at 19c. Pilsners are his favourite style.

Read about the experiment that he did that suprised him the most here. And he says :



Genus Brewing did a thing about warm brewing and said 34/70 is the way to go, and it's Logan's favourite yeast.


I've got no idea; this lager is my first real one. So eventually going from the current 13c to three times that is going to be interesting. I'll try it at 19c at some point after and hope there's enough of this one left to compare. I think I've got some really bad beer coming my way with the 8 way yeasts at 39c split, but it's only 1.5 litres each, and as I've said before : I neeeeed to know! I already know Kristalweizen is amazing at 39c and that's a win even if all the others are rank. It'll be interesting to see how the CML Belgian goes because it's pretty complex at normal temps. By complex I mean.... pffft, I'll grow to like it?


Nor me, but I'm writing that down. If I run that sucka hot and I don't blow chunks you'll get shared academic credit.

** had to look it up and it's the Weihenstephan strain.

Thanks. I will keep the thread updated with my experienced of Hell. I have 3 packs on order, first one I will set as low as ambient allows and take it from there.

 

[matt76]

Thanks. I will keep the thread updated with my experienced of Hell. I have 3 packs on order, first one I will set as low as ambient allows and take it from there.

Two tips I can share:

First is that obviously there are several lager strains that are officially ok up to around 20degC so plenty to choose from.

Second, put your FV in a big plastic crate or builders trug of water to create a water bath. Then you periodically swap out fresh freezer blocks to keep the water bath cool. Doing it like this you can keep it in the 16-18degC range depending on ambient.

 

[Brewnaldo]

Two tips I can share:

First is that obviously there are several lager strains that are officially ok up to around 20degC so plenty to choose from.

Second, put your FV in a big plastic crate or builders trug of water to create a water bath. Then you periodically swap out fresh freezer blocks to keep the water bath cool. Doing it like this you can keep it in the 16-18degC range depending on ambient.

If I do this and it gets good and cold though, it gives me a bit of a headache getting the heat back on for a diacetyl rest having to lug a wet FV about to get my heating tape back on it etc. I think as an experiment I will take the gamble of ambient not getting much about 18 and setting the temp for that to keep it from swinging at night.

The point I am trying to learn really is whether I can turn out decent lager year round without fridges. I am sure with Oslo or Ubbe I could, but Hell is dirt cheap so if it works then happy days

 

[Benfleet Brewery]

I’ve never brewed a lager using a proper lager yeast. Even though I have a brew fridge, I’ve been put off doing so after reading about ensuring correct temperatures of 10 degrees or so, 3 weeks + in the FV, possibility of needing to double pitch, diacetyl rests, conditioning for months etc. I have, however, made three pseudo lagers.
For two of these is used Mangrove Jack M54 and for the other (looping nicely back to the title of this thread and the OP) a CML Cali Common yeast. All three were in the FV for 10 days at 19 degrees before cold crashing and adding gelatine and kegging after a further 4 days. A couple of weeks in the keg and all three turned out, well, just like lagers!

 

[Leon103]

I’ve never brewed a lager using a proper lager yeast. Even though I have a brew fridge, I’ve been put off doing so after reading about ensuring correct temperatures of 10 degrees or so, 3 weeks + in the FV, possibility of needing to double pitch, diacetyl rests, conditioning for months etc. I have, however, made three pseudo lagers.
For two of these is used Mangrove Jack M54 and for the other (looping nicely back to the title of this thread and the OP) a CML Cali Common yeast. All three were in the FV for 10 days at 19 degrees before cold crashing and adding gelatine and kegging after a further 4 days. A couple of weeks in the keg and all three turned out, well, just like lagers!

There is nothing to fear. If you have a fridge and inkbird then getting to around 12c is easy enough. I do 2.5 weeks at 12c and then raise it to 19 for 3 days. My latest batch then had two weeks in the FV at 3c whilst I waiting for my new keg to be set up. It has since been sat in the kegerator which can easily go down to 3c. The intentions were to leave it for another few weeks but temptation got the better of me and I have enjoyed it since.

 

[Benfleet Brewery]

There is nothing to fear. If you have a fridge and inkbird then getting to around 12c is easy enough. I do 2.5 weeks at 12c and then raise it to 19 for 3 days. My latest batch then had two weeks in the FV at 3c whilst I waiting for my new keg to be set up. It has since been sat in the kegerator which can easily go down to 3c. The intentions were to leave it for another few weeks but temptation got the better of me and I have enjoyed it since.

Ok, thanks for that. Had you not been waiting for the keg set up to arrive would you not do the extra two weeks in the FV? Not sure I could get away with tying the brew fridge up with a single brew for over a month! Also, do You just pitch a single pack of yeast?

 

[matt76]

If I do this and it gets good and cold though, it gives me a bit of a headache getting the heat back on for a diacetyl rest having to lug a wet FV about to get my heating tape back on it etc. I think as an experiment I will take the gamble of ambient not getting much about 18 and setting the temp for that to keep it from swinging at night.

The point I am trying to learn really is whether I can turn out decent lager year round without fridges. I am sure with Oslo or Ubbe I could, but Hell is dirt cheap so if it works then happy days

You don't need a fridge.

In experience you only need the temperature control in the first 4-7 days while the yeast do 99% of their work. After this temp matters a lot less.

With the right yeast (e.g. CML Hell) a water bath and ice blocks is good enough to keep the temperature just below room temp, around 18degC and stop it climbing due to the exothermic activity of the yeast.

Once the primary fermentation starts to wind down I bring my FV to room temp for an additional 4-7 days to finish up, diacetyl rest etc before packaging.

Okay, in truth yes I do have a fridge but I don't have any fancy temperature control - just the control knob on the fridge, a stick on thermometer on the FV, and keeping an eye on it. The only advantage of this is that I can use other yeasts that work at lower temperatures (doesn't make a huge difference, the higher temp ones will work just fine) and I can also cold crash.

However, I would still happily use a water bath and in fact I still do this regularly for ale yeasts where I want to keep the temperature closer to 18degC than 21-22degC during that early part of fermentation. After this I don't think it matters much as lager and ale yeasts have done the bulk of their work by this point.

 

[RichK]

Only just noticed (thanks to this thread) CML are trading again :) My LHBS has shut down (permanently?) & next nearest is short on yeast (no S04 or S05). I can see a CML order coming.

 

[cushyno]

I recently used CML California Common in a batch of Lager and went the opposite way - I fermented it cooler. It may just be a characteristic of this particular year that gives Cali Common is flavour, but I find it's not tasting so good in a light lager after 1 week at 12°C, 3 days at 18°C, then bottled and carbed for 2 weeks at 20°C. I followed advice for quick lager method, but this batch has a caramelly twang that's either a huge ester profile for 12°C or a dose of Diacetyl. I can't figure how it could have either.

Hopefully it will condition out.

 

[Leon103]

Ok, thanks for that. Had you not been waiting for the keg set up to arrive would you not do the extra two weeks in the FV? Not sure I could get away with tying the brew fridge up with a single brew for over a month! Also, do You just pitch a single pack of yeast?

Yes I would have left it in the fv and have done so in the past. I pitch two packs. I also pitch two packs when using cml

 

[terrym]

I am trying CML 'Four' yeast for the first time. The first brew from the packet took three days to finish from OG 1.041, and is now waiting to be bottled. But using 4 tablespoons of recovered yeast from trub from batch number one, I pitched into 20l wort of OG 1.040 on Saturday, and it now looks as if its done, after a weekend of frantic bubbling from the airlock. No airlock activity now and clearing as far as I can see through the FV wall. So that's not much over 36 hours which must be a record for me. Whether that's a good or bad thing I'll find out in about 5 weeks time, perhaps earlier. What I can say is its very sticky but doesn't throw up a thick long lasting krausen like the CML Midland I have been using.

 

[matt76]

I am trying CML 'Four' yeast for the first time. The first brew from the packet took three days to finish from OG 1.041, and is now waiting to be bottled. But using 4 tablespoons of recovered yeast from trub from batch number one, I pitched into 20l wort of OG 1.040 on Saturday, and it now looks as if its done, after a weekend of frantic bubbling from the airlock. No airlock activity now and clearing as far as I can see through the FV wall. So that's not much over 36 hours which must be a record for me. Whether that's a good or bad thing I'll find out in about 5 weeks time, perhaps earlier. What I can say is its very sticky but doesn't throw up a thick long lasting krausen like the CML Midland I have been using.

Thanks @terrym , this is interesting to know.

From what I've read it seems likely that CML Four = S-04 (and similarly Five = US-05) so I'd expect it to attenuate more modestly but flocculate well and stick like the proverbial to the bottom of the bottle.

Couple of questions:

1. What temperature have you been fermenting at? I've used S-04 a couple of times (both were Porters) but kept it fairly cool (16degC or lower I think). I've heard it can get a bit unpleasant (ester-ey I think???) at higher temps.
2. I'm interested to hear how your re-pitching goes. I've done this recently with MJ M36 and ended up having to chuck it as there was just a nasty phenolic flavour - cushyno told me he'd had a similar issue. Reason this is relevant is a read a suggestion somewhere that M36 might be the same as S-04.
3. Actually, while I'm picking your brains , what did you think of Midland? I have a pack of this in the fridge and considering it for an ESB.

Cheers,

Matt

 

[cushyno]

Thanks @terrym , this is interesting to know.

From what I've read it seems likely that CML Four = S-04 (and similarly Five = US-05) so I'd expect it to attenuate more modestly but flocculate well and stick like the proverbial to the bottom of the bottle.

Couple of questions:

1. What temperature have you been fermenting at? I've used S-04 a couple of times (both were Porters) but kept it fairly cool (16degC or lower I think). I've heard it can get a bit unpleasant (ester-ey I think???) at higher temps.
2. I'm interested to hear how your re-pitching goes. I've done this recently with MJ M36 and ended up having to chuck it as there was just a nasty phenolic flavour - cushyno told me he'd had a similar issue. Reason this is relevant is a read a suggestion somewhere that M36 might be the same as S-04.
3. Actually, while I'm picking your brains , what did you think of Midland? I have a pack of this in the fridge and considering it for an ESB.

Cheers,

Matt

Matt, I haven't had any trouble repitching S-04, I think Terry will be fine repitching that if it's fresh. From my recollection S-04 and M36 taste quite different. M36 gave a distictive fruitiness for the first couple of batches that I don't get with S-04. Where did you read that the two were the same?