multi-rest mashing

[TonyCall]

Dear brewers, I'm about to brew my first all-grain recipe, I selected a recipe for the Victory Hop Devil because it's grain bill and hop additions were minimal so I thought it would be fairly straightforward. However the mash instructions say 65ºC (10 mins rest) 72ºC (40 mins rest).

What's the best way to do this?

I have a Peco boiler with a false bottom.

Any help greatly appreciated.

Thanks

 

[Bigcol49]

Hi @TonyCall
Do you have any temperature control over your mash?

 

[TonyCall]

Thanks @Bigcol49. Not built in but I have a digital thermometer I was planning to dip into the water.

 

[Bigcol49]

Hi @TonyCall
Step mashing is more difficult in a tea-urn type boiler. The problem is that if you heat the mash using the element, you will get the bottom of the mash up to temperature but the top will still be cooler.
I used a pump to circulate the wort.
I would consider setting your mash temperature at 72°C for the full duration of the mash.

 

[geigercntr]

Can you add a volume of boiling water?

Do the sums here:
https://www.brewersfriend.com/mash/

 

[TonyCall]

Yes. I see that would be a problem. And you don't think it would cause any problems not having the first rest? Obviously a lot easier for me!

Thanks

 

[Hoddy]

Ok so, the only thing that is going on here (with the recipe process you have read) is they are basically telling you to do a mash out step rather than another actual mash rest step.

In short you dot need to worry about this at all. Follow the normal mash step and use the calculated amount of water to obtain 65oC in your mash tun, leave for 60 mins.

Then sparge your mash with the appropriate volume of water @72 (i would suggest higher to 77oC personally) and you will achieve the same thing as the recipe asks.

At 72oC you are basically denaturing the enzymes at that temperature. The mash out step is designed to a) wash out the remaining sugars from your mash and b) stop the enzymatic process to "lock in" the long and short chain sugars that have been created by you mashing at the selected temperature.

Hopefully that helps.

 

[TonyCall]

Thanks @Hoddy, very helpful.

Although re-reading my post I realise that I should have added that I'm doing biab so I'm not using a separate boiler/mash/lauter.

Sorry, feel really stupid now!!

 

[Ghillie]

I wouldn't ever mash at 72C. Whats-more is that a 50 minute mash is weird. Mash for an hour, mash out for ten minutes.

You want to be mashing between 60-70C ideally for extracting sugars from the grains. The lower end is a thin beer, higher end is a full bodied beer. Full bodied beers don't extract as much fermentable sugars, so they have a higher residual sugar content (higher FG), hence the full body mouthfeel. Stout, etc. Thin bodied beers have more fermentable sugars, so finish dryer (lower FG). Lager, etc.

A mash out is typically done at 75C/76C for 10-15 minutes.

 

[divrack]

I agree it's a weird schedule. But i don't think it's saying the 72 is a mash out step. It seems to be targeting alpha, although it's high for alpha, and the first rest is also high for a pure Beta rest.
I would get an stc1000 or inkbird digital controller and pump as suggested for future, but for this beer it seems that they are targeting a fairly high body profile so i would aim for something around 69c for an hr. Keep the grain off the bottom and stir a bunch and have as much liquid as you can fit. A bit of fluctuation is ok

 

[Ghillie]

I think the best thing to do in this instance is establish what the style of beer is and suggest a mash schedule that isn't completely stupid.

 

[divrack]

Looking at the beer i don't see why you would want such high body. Id change my earlier suggestion to a 66 c mash for an hr.

 

[An Ankoù]

Hi Tony,
Hi all,
I'm new to this forum. My first post.
This is a most unfortunate start to your first attempt at all grain. The boiler is going to be a problem and the mash temperature is too high. I would suggest you get an insulated cooler box standard size, whatever you use to take your beer and sandwiches camping with you. Use this as your mash tun. As you're brewing in a bag you don't need a tap and straining system. Use your boiler to heat the water. Boil a kettle and throw the water in the cooler box to pre heat it. Raise the water (about 3 gallons) in the boiler to 72C. Throw away the pre-heating water and pour the water into the cooler box and stir in the grain. Stir well. MASH it! It should settle out at about 64-66C. Don't worry if it's a bit less than this. Put the lid on. Put the kettle on again. After 10-15 minutes check the temperature of the mash and raise it to 65-66C with boiling water and stir well. MASH it! Put the lid back on. I leave my grain in the mash tun for 90 minutes. Half an hour or so before the end off the mash, put a couple more gallons of water in your boiler and raise it to about 75-80C no hotter. This is your rinse (sparge) water. Transfer to another vessel as you'll need your boiler empty to receive the wort from your mash. When you've drained the wort into the boiler, drop the bag back into the cooler box and flood the contents with the sparge water. Add to your boiler and continue until you have the full quantity you want to boil. Proceed with the rest of your recipe.
Sorry for the detail, but you said this was your first time and I'd hate for you to be put off on your first attempt.
Good luck.

 

[An Ankoù]

Hi Tony,
Hi all,
I'm new to this forum. My first post.
This is a most unfortunate start to your first attempt at all grain. The boiler is going to be a problem and the mash temperature is too high. I would suggest you get an insulated cooler box standard size, whatever you use to take your beer and sandwiches camping with you. Use this as your mash tun. As you're brewing in a bag you don't need a tap and straining system. Use your boiler to heat the water. Boil a kettle and throw the water in the cooler box to pre heat it. Raise the water (about 3 gallons) in the boiler to 72C. Throw away the pre-heating water and pour the water into the cooler box and stir in the grain. Stir well. MASH it! It should settle out at about 64-66C. Don't worry if it's a bit less than this. Put the lid on. Put the kettle on again. After 10-15 minutes check the temperature of the mash and raise it to 65-66C with boiling water and stir well. MASH it! Put the lid back on. I leave my grain in the mash tun for 90 minutes. Half an hour or so before the end off the mash, put a couple more gallons of water in your boiler and raise it to about 75-80C no hotter. This is your rinse (sparge) water. Transfer to another vessel as you'll need your boiler empty to receive the wort from your mash. When you've drained the wort into the boiler, drop the bag back into the cooler box and flood the contents with the sparge water. Add to your boiler and continue until you have the full quantity you want to boil. Proceed with the rest of your recipe.
Sorry for the detail, but you said this was your first time and I'd hate for you to be put off on your first attempt.
Good luck.

By the way. Just looked at this beer and its an American IPA. The recipe I found on Brewer's Friend uses US gallons (19 litres approx). This is a UK forum and I'm referring to Imperial gallons (23litres approx) each.

 

[strange-steve]

It's an unusual mash schedule indeed.

When in doubt mash at 67° for 60 mins. There's no need to complicate it, especially for an American IPA.

 

[TonyCall]

Hi Tony,
Hi all,
I'm new to this forum. My first post.
This is a most unfortunate start to your first attempt at all grain. The boiler is going to be a problem and the mash temperature is too high. I would suggest you get an insulated cooler box standard size, whatever you use to take your beer and sandwiches camping with you. Use this as your mash tun. As you're brewing in a bag you don't need a tap and straining system. Use your boiler to heat the water. Boil a kettle and throw the water in the cooler box to pre heat it. Raise the water (about 3 gallons) in the boiler to 72C. Throw away the pre-heating water and pour the water into the cooler box and stir in the grain. Stir well. MASH it! It should settle out at about 64-66C. Don't worry if it's a bit less than this. Put the lid on. Put the kettle on again. After 10-15 minutes check the temperature of the mash and raise it to 65-66C with boiling water and stir well. MASH it! Put the lid back on. I leave my grain in the mash tun for 90 minutes. Half an hour or so before the end off the mash, put a couple more gallons of water in your boiler and raise it to about 75-80C no hotter. This is your rinse (sparge) water. Transfer to another vessel as you'll need your boiler empty to receive the wort from your mash. When you've drained the wort into the boiler, drop the bag back into the cooler box and flood the contents with the sparge water. Add to your boiler and continue until you have the full quantity you want to boil. Proceed with the rest of your recipe.
Sorry for the detail, but you said this was your first time and I'd hate for you to be put off on your first attempt.
Good luck.

Cheers Mike, really helpful suggestions, I'm pretty sure I've got a cool box knocking around.

 

[ACBEV]

A few things to throw into the pot...

On the face of it step mashing from 65c to 72c does seem odd, but not unheard of. It's something I've seen a few times from Boddingtons aka from Barclay Perkins blog.

As for mashing @ 72c, it does work as a mashing temp. but takes a while longer, it's certainly not a mash out temp.

I don't do BIAB, but would think it's much easier to do step mashing with a mash tun. Although if I was to use the BIAB method, I'd plump for 67c.

 

[Bigcol49]

the mash temperature is too high

Hi!
72°C is most unusual, but it definitely is not too high. You can brew a very malty beer by mashing at that temperature.

 

[An Ankoù]

Hi!
72°C is most unusual, but it definitely is not too high. You can brew a very malty beer by mashing at that temperature.

Agreed, but it seems too high for the style. Looked at the recipe at Brewers Friend and there seems to be plenty there to give the beer chunkiness and the recipe declares an apparent attenuation of 81% using US-05. US-05 is pretty forgiving, but why make it struggle? More importantly, though, Tony said he's new to all grain, he's unsure of how his kit works and how to get the best out of it. That's why I pointed him towards the middle rather than the extremes of what would work.

 

[TonyCall]

Thanks for everybody's input on this, I've got a lot to take in, it's going to be a really interesting ride.

I'll post my results when I'm done.

This is such a great forum.

Thanks