matt76's Brewdays

[matt76]

Tasting notes: AG#73 "Get Even IPA"

As I noted when I bottled these (see link above) I tried a few experiments to see if I could limit hop oxidation, including purging the head space with inert gas.

I've tried a few now, mostly just the purged ones (hence the "P" on the bottle cap) - it's light, it's refreshing and most importantly the hops taste fresh and bright

(It's a bit under-carbed, even by my standards, but that's mainly by the by as far as hoppiness is concerned)

If I'm splitting hairs I'm not totally sure the hops are perfectly balanced - on the one hand I get piney-resin, on the other hand I get grapefruit. I feel like it just needs a little nudge in one direction or the other to push one or the other flavour to the fore and the other to more of a supporting role. But that's a detail and frankly a nice problem to have

By contrast the other night I tried one due at bottling with some ascorbic acid / vitamin-C, supposedly an antioxidant. By comparison this one tasted pretty bleh!

Not foul and not the wet cardboard you'd associate with oxidised beer, but I thought there was a clear difference in the hop flavour - pretty much what I'd expect as the hops start to oxidise.

This certainly wasn't a blind tasting or the most rigorous experiment. Still, it's an interesting comparison.

It's all a bit redundant now as the plan in the future is to keg hoppy beers like this via closed transfer. Nevertheless it fits with what I'd read elsewhere and it does seem like there's some merit in purging the headspace of hoppy beers at bottling

 

[matt76]

@pilgrimhudd sent me a message with some additional feedback on my AG#73 "Get Even" IPA. From a short feedback message I thought there's actually quite a lot of interesting brewing stuff to unpack, muse on and generally nerd out about about how to make a session IPA/APA/Pale Ale - so I'm gonna respond here for all to see (hope that's OK!).....

Hello matt, having your ipa at the mo, and have to say I've not enjoyed this one as much. The aroma, wow, first class, whatever magic you've been doing recently has worked, really lovely. I've just found it a little watery, very light (of course that's what you may have been going for but it's all subjective this isn't it) , also not as bitter as the aroma suggests. Nice grapefruit citrus taste to it though. What temp did you ferment at? I certainly would drink it again though!

Thanks for the feedback, glad you sort of liked it I think the wateriness criticism is perfectly justified. As I recall you also said my last Podium IPA (AG#69) was a bit thin - the only difference here is the hops (oh, and the "Aromazyme" enzyme).

Nowadays as you've probably noticed I'm aiming for around 4% ABV in all my beers. In a Stout or Porter you can get away with it because there are so many unfermentables. But in a session IPA/APA/Pale Ale like this you have less hiding room. So was this what I was going for? Yes, pretty much. Would I accept it could do with bulking up a bit more? Absolutely!

To answer your question it was fermented with BRY-97 at 20degC, same temp pretty much as all my ales. It went from 1.038 to 1.005 - a side effect of the "Aromazyme" enzyme is it increases attenuation, and I'd have thought the low-ish FG isn't doing the body any favours. I think the fact it's under-carbed didn't help either - I think more fizz would give the impression of more body.

When I first made this a year ago (AG#47) it was 5.8% ABV, so you've got more malt in there anyway, plus I used a 500g bag of Munich II => more body. This time round it's just Golden Promise, and only a mere 2kg in a 10L batch. Even for me and my 4%-ish ABV beers that's low as I reduced the base malt to compensate for the Aromazyme increasing attenuation.

The bitterness thing is interesting too - when I made it first time round last year I recall it was bitter but not as aggressively so as the 58 IBUs (Rager) suggested. And it's the same thing again this time around - according to Brewer's Friend it's 60 IBUs (Rager), or 88 IBUs on the more usual Tinseth scale. It's a question of personal preference of course - I don't think it's lacking bitterness but even with a BU:GU ratio of almost 1.6 I definitely come away thinking it could still take more.

So what would I change?

1. First thing is I'd lose the Aromazyme - I know it's increasing attenuation but since I've never done a back to back I don't know for sure if it's really doing much for the hop aroma and flavour. Since I plan to keg via closed transfer in the future maybe that will be enough to do what I want as far as hoppiness goes.
2. For the malt (10L batch remember!) I'd try substituting some of the base malt for 500g Vienna, 250g Munich and 250g Carapils (N.B. actually the same grain bill as my Hoppy Amber Ale except using Munich instead of Amber Malt!).
3. Hops - I'll need to have a bit of a play with a recipe calculator to another, say, 10 IBUs and then see what that does for the bitterness. I only used 90g hops total (60g in the boil, 30g dry hop) so plenty of headroom before it turns into a hop soup!

So plenty of things to think about and experiment with. I've got 3 hoppy session beers like this in my current repertoire: this Get Even IPA; my signature Podium IPA; and also the Hoppy Amber Ale. The trick is to give each one it's own character so I don't end up with 3 same-y beers.

Cheers,

Matt

 

[pilgrimhudd]

Bit busy at the mo at work but I did think as I was drinking it that it could do with a snifter of munich or vienna just to bulk it up a little.

I was also listening to a beersmith podcast yesterday about hop bitterness which was quite interesting. So I'll have another look at your hop additions later when I get chance.

Completely agree about giving each one it's own character.

 

[matt76]

Bit busy at the mo at work but I did think as I was drinking it that it could do with a snifter of munich or vienna just to bulk it up a little.

I was also listening to a beersmith podcast yesterday about hop bitterness which was quite interesting. So I'll have another look at your hop additions later when I get chance.

Completely agree about giving each one it's own character.

The "classic" IPA recipe would probably have a bit of crystal malt in there too...

...But that's exactly where this recipe was born last year - after a succession of disappointing beers I got angry and decided to make a beer with lots of base malt and lots of bittering and aroma hops.

My conclusion was that somehow the crystal malt I had been using suppressed the hop flavour and ever since then I've been averse to using it in my hoppy beers.

But for sure I've no problem so far with Vienna, Munich or Carapils

 

[cushyno]

The "classic" IPA recipe would probably have a bit of crystal malt in there too...

...But that's exactly where this recipe was born last year - after a succession of disappointing beers I got angry and decided to make a beer with lots of base malt and lots of bittering and aroma hops.

My conclusion was that somehow the crystal malt I had been using suppressed the hop flavour and ever since then I've been averse to using it in my hoppy beers.

But for sure I've no problem so far with Vienna, Munich or Carapils

It might be a crazy suggestion, how about trying a decoction as part of your mash schedule?

Mash in low at about 63degC for 10 minutes (not too long, just enough to get the pH down and get the enzynes working, then take off a few litres of mash and boil for 5-10 minutes. Add back into the mash to raise temperature to 68ish, by which time most of your mash will be converted and you should have a decent fermentable wort, but the few litres you decocted off will be hopefully full of dextrins with more body and maltiness from the decoction.

 

[cushyno]

Useful info here: Decoction Mashing

 

[matt76]

It might be a crazy suggestion

Yes it is a crazy suggestion

 

[matt76]

Yes it is a crazy suggestion

Oh, and your theory is total bobbins because the amylase enzymes present in the hops will just break down those longer chain sugars anyway

 

[cushyno]

Oh, and your theory is total bobbins because the amylase enzymes present in the hops will just break down those longer chain sugars anyway

If that's the case wouldn't we all end up with over-attenuated beers every time?

 

[matt76]

AG#74 Podium IPA

Made this late last night and then spent my morning off work finishing off the cleanup, transferring the wort to the FV and pitching the yeast etc. (also went this morning to collect a new fridge/kegerator-to-be I won on eBay last night!)

All being well this will be the first batch of beer I keg rather than bottle, rendering any comparisons with previous efforts null and void. Sixth time of making this beer IIRC - the last batch was OK but still lacking something(s) so I had a think about hops and how I would design it today compared with the first time I made it in AG#5. I want more bitterness but I also want an orangey-citrus flavour. So, the Simcoe goes in earlier, Citra in the middle and Amarillo at the end & dry hop.

I'm also dry hopping early on to encourage bio-transformation of hop compounds although I'm not bothering with the "Aromazyme" enzyme I've been trying recently as it makes attenuation harder to predict.

I've reduced the malt bill compared to last time from 2.5kg to just 2.0kg - a 4% ABV beer or thereabouts will do me just fine. As such I expect it lack body and mouthfeel but if I can nail the strength and flavours I want first then I can tweak the malts used in the future.

15L tap water, 17.5ml CRS, 3g gypsum, half a Campden tablet, giving:
Calcium 182
Chloride 121
Sulfate 260
Alkalinity 75

2000g Golden Promise
2.00kg TOTAL

60min full-volume no-sparge mash @ 67degC

Boil 30mins:
10g Simcoe 12.7% AAU for 30mins
10g Citra 11.0% AAU for 15mins
5g Simcoe 12.7% AAU for 15mins
20g Citra 11.0% AAU for 10mins
30g Amarillo 8.6% AAU for 5mins
1/2 Protafloc tablet 5mins

Dry hop:
15g Amarillo at yeast pitch
Will add another 15g Amarillo at high krausen

Chilled to about 25degC and then left the brew kettle overnight for the crud to settle out. In the current heatwave it didn't cool any further overnight! Drained just shy of 11L crystal clear wort to the FV and collected 2L crud in a bottle which should net another 1L or so.

Pitched 5.5g BRY-97.

3.9 SRM - Pale
54 IBUs Rager
OG 1.038 (bang on!)
Expect it to end up about 1.008 and 3.9% ABV.

 

[foxbat]

Sounds like a good sessionable version of your favourite IPA. Can't go wrong with those two hops and hopefully it'll stay fresh for longer in your new keg setup.

 

[matt76]

Sounds like a good sessionable version of your favourite IPA. Can't go wrong with those two hops and hopefully it'll stay fresh for longer in your new keg setup.

That is very much the hope!

It turns out the kegerator fridge I bought originally isn't cooling properly despite my best efforts to repair it, hence the need for another one. Fingers crossed second time around

 

[matt76]

Brewery Update

AG#74 Podium IPA - Finished in 2-3 days at 1.008-1.009 as expected. Cold crashing now with a "hi-tech CO2 bladder" attached to prevent O2 suck back. Looking forward to my first kegging in a few days time

New kegerator fridge - The first one I got a few weeks back turned out not to cool properly so is now being employed as a second ferm fridge for my Brett aged porter. Here's the new one - spent yesterday giving it a damn good clean - it needed it! Up and running fine now, no cooling issues here, just too few kegs in it

AG#70 Brett Aged Porter - It's been in there for 12 weeks now and seems to have settled at 1.008 (blue line below) making it about 5.4% ABV so far (compared with 3.8% from the Saccharomyces MJ M36). My gut feeling is it's done, just hoping for some more experienced feedback in The Mixed Fermentation Thread to decide whether to go ahead and package

 

[matt76]

Kegging: AG#74 Podium IPA
A mostly uneventful first kegging. Only took an hour from start to end of clean up, even with a bit of first time faffing, then double and triple checking everything, and making damn sure everything was fully purged.

(For comparison, bottling ~20 x 500ml bottles would typically take me 90 mins from start to end of clean up)

Pretty pleased so far with the closed transfer, only one or two minor snags to iron out, nothing major.

Keg now hooked up to the gas at 10psi and 6degC. If I take the carbonation chart at face value that's not stupidly high at all, but probably a little higher than I like. It's a first attempt and can be fine tuned as I get my bearings.

The small sample I had was nice - bitter; citrusey-hoppy. Reckon I might allow myself a proper first taste at the weekend

 

[foxbat]

Kegging: AG#74 Podium IPA
A mostly uneventful first kegging. Only took an hour from start to end of clean up, even with a bit of first time faffing, then double and triple checking everything, and making damn sure everything was fully purged.

(For comparison, bottling ~20 x 500ml bottles would typically take me 90 mins from start to end of clean up)

Pretty pleased so far with the closed transfer, only one or two minor snags to iron out, nothing major.

Keg now hooked up to the gas at 10psi and 6degC. If I take the carbonation chart at face value that's not stupidly high at all, but probably a little higher than I like. It's a first attempt and can be fine tuned as I get my bearings.

The small sample I had was nice - bitter; citrusey-hoppy. Reckon I might allow myself a proper first taste at the weekend

Nice one, you'll soon get into the kegging flow and it'll get a bit quicker. 10psi is quite modest at 6C and shouldn't be overcarbed at all, the accuracy of our gauges not withstanding of course. Don't be worried if the first pint or two is a little bit cloudy. With the dip tube being right at the bottom then that's always going to happen. It soon clears up, especially if you can leave it for more than 3 days...

 

[matt76]

It soon clears up, especially if you can leave it for more than 3 days...

That's a very big "if"

 

[matt76]

First Tasting: AG#74 Podium IPA

3.9 SRM
54 IBUs Rager
OG/FG 1.038/1.008
3.9% ABV.

Having held out for marathon 3.5 days I treated myself last night to a first taste from the keg...

The good: It's beer! From a keg! And I don't have so many bottles to wash up this morning!

It's pale, very light bodied (too light really). Not getting much aroma but it's bitter, with a citrus hoppy flavour (I could be talked into tangerine).

The indifferent: It's cloudy (but bright) - it could just be first pint or two from the keg, or or could just be my usual struggles against haze. Based on when I've used these finings before (NBS BrauSol from TMM) I'd expect it to settle out and be pretty darn clear.

The bad: Carbonation is very low, even by my standards - too low really. Not sure if this is just not enough time in the keg or pressure set too low (or both!).

I expect this to take a bit of trial and error to dial in but for now I've gambled and upped it from 10 to 15psi.

The main issue (and I'm being very harsh on myself) is I think the recipe just needs some work. It's a nice beer, just not my best...

I knew before I started that it would end up quite thin - low carbonation probably doesn't help, but I plan to try some Vienna, Munich and Carapils next time to try to bulk it up a bit.

Also I'm not sure dry hopping at the start of fermentation is quite giving me the hop aroma punch I want. I think I was doing it to limit O2 exposure but now I have a great big CO2 cylinder that's a non issue.

 

[The-Engineer-That-Brews]

Carbonation is very low, even by my standards - too low really. Not sure if this is just not enough time in the keg or pressure set too low (or both!).

I expect this to take a bit of trial and error to dial in but for now I've gambled and upped it from 10 to 15psi.

One of the nice things about kegging is that you can increase the carbonation bit by bit until you get the level you want :-) What I tend to do is take it up to about 20psi then lay the keg on its side (still connected) and 'rock' it gently until the gas stops going in - then have a taste, and repeat if it needs a bit more.

 

[foxbat]

This...

The indifferent: It's cloudy (but bright) - it could just be first pint or two from the keg, or or could just be my usual struggles against haze. Based on when I've used these finings before (NBS BrauSol from TMM) I'd expect it to settle out and be pretty darn clear.

The bad: Carbonation is very low, even by my standards - too low really. Not sure if this is just not enough time in the keg or pressure set too low (or both!).

is because of...

Having held out for marathon 3.5 days I treated myself last night to a first taste from the keg...

Patience! Come back after it's been in the keg for two weeks and both carbonation and conditioning will be done.

 

[Moe]

Also I'm not sure dry hopping at the start of fermentation is quite giving me the hop aroma punch I want. I think I was doing it to limit O2 exposure but now I have a great big CO2 cylinder that's a non issue.

I’ve made the David Heath Verdant IPA twice, the first time dry hopping at yeast pitch and the second after fermentation. I also did the same with Vacant gesture ( a dry hopped blonde beer)

Both beers had much more hop aroma when dry hopped after fermentation had finished.