NEIPA - more bitter than expected, what did I do wrong?

[Nicks90]

To check if it's bitterness or astringency, in your next pint put a pinch of salt in your glass before you pour.
If it tastes less bitter then it's ibus too high for your taste.
If there is no change then it's astringency

 

[BottlesCansCraft]

Hi BCC go into Brewers friend then select Equipment Profiles and then go to the hop option section and the default you can set is suggested @ 5% that should give you a average IBU reading for dry hopping

Thanks, that's really helpful!

 

[BottlesCansCraft]

To check if it's bitterness or astringency, in your next pint put a pinch of salt in your glass before you pour.
If it tastes less bitter then it's ibus too high for your taste.
If there is no change then it's astringency

I'll definitely try this later today. If it's astringency, would that shed any light on what the cause would be?

 

[The Baron]

Astringency results from phenolics, particularly polyphenols in beer. Phenols arise from the husks of malt and the stems of hops and polymerise to polyphenols during brewing and in beer maturation. These polyphenols include drying, mouth-puckering tannins.
That's why if you look at say Carafe malts they say de-husked as it is not as strong in flavour and less chance of astringency as no husks also anything that creates too much Tannins will usually add to astringency
Many years ago I got astringency in 3 beers on the trot, as soon as I corrected my PH with acidulated malt it was back to normal.

 

[MashBag]

How would swapping hops from dry hop to whirlpool reduce bitterness?

It would expect it to increase bitterness

 

[BasementArtie]

To check if it's bitterness or astringency, in your next pint put a pinch of salt in your glass before you pour.
If it tastes less bitter then it's ibus too high for your taste.
If there is no change then it's astringency

Can you explain the salt IBU thing as I've been having this problem bitterness (even with only <80C hop stand additions and dry hops at 14C) with all my NEIPAs and added salt and it seems then my IBUs must be too high as the taste changed. What is the relationship?

 

[TNP]

Nothing, in fact you may have done a decent NEIPA, although I admit that "decent NEIPA" sounds like an oxymoron

 

[malhal]

I would guess forgot to acidify sparge water.
Forgot to acidify before whirlpool hops.

Probably hop or grain tannins are the "bitterness".

 

[Antbeer]

I would guess forgot to acidify sparge water.
Forgot to acidify before whirlpool hops.

Probably hop or grain tannins are the "bitterness".

I’m still a beginner so please forgive the dumb question; I thought I only needed to adjust ph for my mash water. How does ph affect the sparge water?
I can see some adjustments in the boil but thought the main purpose for adjusting ph was to get sugars extracted from the grain..
What am i missing please?

 

[RoomWithABrew]

Without pH adjust in sparge the pH of the cut off raises and this is said to increase astringency from any tannins washed out during sparge.
A lower pH reduces this.
A further thing is that dry hopping raises pH and a higher pH will also increase bitterness perceived in the final beer.
This is why some brewers acidify the wort post boil prior to whirlpool. Some are aiming for a final post dry hop pH of 4.1 or a little above this.

 

[The Baron]

I also add extra Lactic when dry hopping to reduce the same action although I do not do large dry hops anymore as it does increase the bitterness/perceived IMO

 

[Antbeer]

Without pH adjust in sparge the pH of the cut off raises and this is said to increase astringency from any tannins washed out during sparge.
A lower pH reduces this.
A further thing is that dry hopping raises pH and a higher pH will also increase bitterness perceived in the final beer.
This is why some brewers acidify the wort post boil prior to whirlpool. Some are aiming for a final post dry hop pH of 4.1 or a little above this.

Thank you for your reply.
My tap water has a ph of 7.4 so that may explain one of my challenges.
I’m not dry hopping yet but i have had trouble with astringency in the past so what you are saying about higher ph makes sense.
I’ve been reducing hops and adding lactic acid to the mash to reduce bitterness but this can dumb down the flavour. It will be nice to be able to add hops without worrying about astringent bitterness.
I’ll try adding lactic acid to my mash water too.
Does anyone have some guidance about target sparge PH?
Thanks again

 

[Antbeer]

Thank you for your reply.
My tap water has a ph of 7.4 so that may explain one of my challenges.
I’m not dry hopping yet but i have had trouble with astringency in the past so what you are saying about higher ph makes sense.
I’ve been reducing hops and adding lactic acid to the mash to reduce bitterness but this can dumb down the flavour. It will be nice to be able to add hops without worrying about astringent bitterness.
I’ll try adding lactic acid to my mash water too.
Does anyone have some guidance about target sparge PH?
Thanks again

I’ve found the sparge water adjustments on Beersmith 3 so I’ll give it a go next brew.
Thanks again

 

[RoomWithABrew]

I aim for pH of about 5.2 in my sparge water, I use phosphoric acid.

Tap water has very little buffer capacity so you will find that you don't need to add much acid to drop the pH of your sparge water.

 

[Antbeer]

I aim for pH of about 5.2 in my sparge water, I use phosphoric acid.

Tap water has very little buffer capacity so you will find that you don't need to add much acid to drop the pH of your sparge water.

Awesome
Thanks

 

[peterpiper]

Without pH adjust in sparge the pH of the cut off raises and this is said to increase astringency from any tannins washed out during sparge.
A lower pH reduces this.
A further thing is that dry hopping raises pH and a higher pH will also increase bitterness perceived in the final beer.
This is why some brewers acidify the wort post boil prior to whirlpool. Some are aiming for a final post dry hop pH of 4.1 or a little above this.

When (un adjusted) water is used to sparge, the pH gradually goes up as acid (from the mash) is washed out. This is why some recommend to stop sparging, once sparge liquid is coming out below maybe 1.020 or 1.010.

Risk of astringincy increases if the sparge water is too hot, and if the the pH is too high. Combination of too hot, and too high (a pH), is asking for trouble.
Initial sparge water can be 80°C. If not adjusting spargh pH, reduce later (batch) sparge temperature, towards tepid or cool for the last couple of litres.
Having soft tap water, I usually don't bother adjusting sparge pH. But it's important in hard water areas.

Boiling water will release tannins from husks, whatever the pH, more coming from dark malts (especially black). So never sparge with boiling water, or leave any escaped grains, to remain during boil.

If using black malt, rather than mashing, I now steep it to avoid tannnins. I steep them in hop spider, when the strike water reaches 40°C, for 5 minutes (with recirculation through), then remove.

 

[peterpiper]

Batch size: 18L
ABV (standard): 6.23%
IBU (tinseth): 21.65
FERMENTABLES:
3.6 kg - Golden Promise (71.3%)
0.4 kg - Dextrine Malt (7.9%)
0.2 kg - Pale Wheat Malt (4%)
0.2 kg - Acidulated (4%)
0.65 kg - Flaked Oats (12.9%)

HOPS:
10 g - Citra, Type: Pellet, AA: 11, Use: Boil for 30 min, IBU: 11.86
15 g - Citra, Type: Pellet, AA: 11, Use: Whirlpool for 0 min at °C, IBU: 4.58
15 g - Mosaic, Type: Pellet, AA: 12.5, Use: Whirlpool for 0 min at °C, IBU: 5.21
50 g - Mosaic, Type: Pellet, AA: 12.5, Use: Dry Hop for 0 days
40 g - Ekuanot, Type: Pellet, AA: 14.25, Use: Dry Hop for 0 days
50 g - Citra, Type: Pellet, AA: 11, Use: Dry Hop for 0 days

YEAST:
Lallemand - Verdant IPA

I like few bitter (or astringent) beers. But after discovering I really liked Spider Monkey, a hazy IPA from Black Isle Brewery, I developed a clone (based on the limited info available).
This ended up similar to your NEIPA recipe. It also used Verdant, plus Nottingham (co-pitched after 48hr), but with a higher wheat %, and higher IBU. Though a lower % of dry hops
Recipe for IBU 41, but as hopstand temperature was dropping, IBU could be a touch less.

Was very happy with the result, seems better than the original, and it's certainly not too bitter.
I'm wondering if the wheat protein, somehow smoothes the bitterness. It certainly has a definate wheat beer 'feel'.

Recent research has shown that while dry hopping a high IBU beer (over 30IBU) can reduce bitterness (by some bittering compounds being absorbed into the plant material), dry hopping low IBU beers (under 20IBU) increases bitterness (but not it's IBU measurement). Dry Hopping Effect on Bitterness and IBU Testing

I kept the mash temperature down, aiming for more fermentable sugars, and a lower FG.

SpiderMonkey clone:
Batch volume: 23 litre
Original Gravity: 1.053
Final Gravity: 1.008
ABV 5.9%
IBU (Tinseth): 41
BU/GU: 0.78
Colour: 7.7 EBC

Mash
Beta-Amylase rest — 65 °C — 60 min
Mash Out — 76 °C — 10 min

Malts (4.7 kg)
3.5 kg (71.4%) — Muntons Pale Malt Maris Otter — Grain — 5.1 EBC
1 kg (20.4%) — Simpsons Wheat Malt — Grain — 4 EBC
200 g (4.1%) — Briess Carapils — Grain — 2.6 EBC

Other (200 g)
200 g (4.1%) — Briess Dextrose — Sugar — 2 EBC

Hops (170 g)
5 g (8 IBU) — Simcoe 13% — Boil — 60 min

10 g (9 IBU) — Nelson Sauvin 12% — Boil — 20 min
10 g (9 IBU) — Simcoe 13% — Boil — 20 min
5 g (4 IBU) — Citra 12% — Boil — 20 min

40 g (7 IBU) — Nelson Sauvin 12% — Aroma — 20 min hopstand @ 80 °C
20 g (3 IBU) — Citra 12% — Aroma — 20 min hopstand @ 80 °C
10 g (1 IBU) — Cascade 7% — Aroma — 20 min hopstand @ 80 °C

Added after initial vigorous ferment:
40 g — Nelson Sauvin 12% — Dry Hop — 10 days
20 g — Citra 12% — Dry Hop — 10 days
10 g — Cascade 4.3% — Dry Hop — 10 days

Yeast:
1 pkg — Lallemand (LalBrew) Verdant IPA
1 pkg — Lallemand (LalBrew) Nottingham (after 48hr.)