Just stop oil

[hoppyscotty]

Yup, I try to make the least impactful choice on a daily basis but in a globalised world it's impossible to be perfect. If you want people to listen they really need to lead by example.

If we could use sustainable palm oil instead of fossil based oil that would also improve our health if it was not longer in so many food products. Taking fossil fuel it out of the ground is a one time event. i.e. once that oil has gone it cant be extracted again. Growing oil should soak up co2 and be part of a closed loop.

We can't stop oil. perhaps they should be called DUDO (don't use dinosaur oil)

Lead by example? who's listening or taking note? Do you really think India and China give two hoots if we're leading by example?

The fact that we might take some sort of moral high ground and engage in virtue signalling is utterly irrelevant unless China and India don't start reducing emissions.

To be fair to China they are investing heavily in renewable..its just involving the flooding of several valleys for the hydro stations and manufacturing shed loads of solar panels...form fossil fuelled energy, so no surprise any CO2 emission reductions they're making is being dwarfed by their expansion of coal fired energy....but hopefully one day as the critical mass of renewable solutions increases that trend might be reversed.

This aint a problem we in the UK will solve or even influence. We're passengers on this bus I'm afraid. Not saying we shouldn't play our part, and be good husbands to the planet, and we absolutely are, but let's not delude or flatter ourselves. The best contribution we can make is fostering a strong economy and having a strong financial services sector that can offer up international investments to fund ventures in other far more emitting countries, and have our clever scientists and engineers engaged in developing the technologies that will be needed to solve the problem. And all that is happening and is exactly the sort of thing that JSO are trying to disrupt.

 

[evil.soup]

I do wonder how many of them go abroad every year on holiday, own a log burner and drive to the supermarket on the outskirts of their towns to get heir monthly shop.

This is exactly my thinking, in fact, one of the leaders of JSO owns a diesel car and was pictured buying imported avocados at Waitrose not that long ago.

These people are hypocrites stopping traffic having driven to the location to protest about people using cars, madness!

 

[aolcot]

If JSO's mandate is truly about fighting for change and not just to incite civil disobedience then do it properly. Get yourself elected, get into parliament, and argue the cause in the house like a modern democracy. Hell, it worked for Farage.

 

[DCBC]

If JSO's mandate is truly about fighting for change and not just to incite civil disobedience then do it properly. Get yourself elected, get into parliament, and argue the cause in the house like a modern democracy. Hell, it worked for Farage.

Do you honestly, honestly expect this to ever happen? Big business and oil in particular has a stranglehold on Western politics, and the UK is no exception. Do you think any of the major civil rights successes won globally over the last century would have been achieved by simply 'getting elected'?

 

[aolcot]

No of course i dont! but you'll get a lot more support from the public, maybe even some of the media when you go about it in the right way, rather than the current approach of the JSO, which is what this thread started upon i.e. has JSO failed. When you start to cost people time, cost people their hard earned money and even in rare cases cost people their health, then you are going to garner very little support which we see currently.
I see JSO is led by the same person(s) from extinction rebellion which has largely run its course in the media.. JSO has a lot more traction, but one day it'll fade because the country turns against their methods - will they just start a new group/campaign of disobedience of a worthwhile cause ?
So my point was a little disguised, in that if their true mandate is regarding climate change (which i don't think anyone disagrees that needs to happen) then lets see them doing it properly rather than their current tactics which tbh, i think a lot of the country is tired of seeing.

 

[hoppyscotty]

Do you honestly, honestly expect this to ever happen? Big business and oil in particular has a stranglehold on Western politics, and the UK is no exception. Do you think any of the major civil rights successes won globally over the last century would have been achieved by simply 'getting elected'?

If you cannot formulate an intelligent, compelling fact based argument to challenge peoples ideas and change them, then you have no business engaging in the democratic process and its time to leave and let the adults carry on. By all means have an opinion and express that opinion in any way that is within the law, but if you really want to engage in the political process and try to change things it requires something more than just shouting at people and demanding they see things your way or else....

To say that oil and big business has a stranglehold is ridiculous. Look what's happening now....oil companies having their businesses pulled from underneath them, effectively outlawed, by governments not allowing any more drilling and exploration licences. My brother lives in Aberdeen and its like a ghost town, businesses abandoning the place as quickly as they can. It used to be the second most affluent place in the UK.....The might of the big global car companies being told they can't product their cars from 2030.....it's a ridiculous accusation to make.

Also look at the impact of activist groups in the past....the demonisation of anything nuclear in the 70's and 80's paralysed governments from making any decisions on nuclear power in the last 50 years...unbelievably effective...unfortunately for us now following several wars over oil and millions of lives lost as a result and boy, do we really want another 5 or so nuclear power stations up and running right now in the light of the CO2 emissions and the need to massively increase our power generating capacity.

What about swampy and his mates protesting about new roads....well again that freighted our politicians into not building any more new roads...or nowhere near enough, in the last 40 years and now we have millions of cars sat stationary in traffic jams spewing out toxins that are contributing to hundreds of thousands of deaths a year due to poor air quality.

I think the opposite is true...too much influence form the ill informed noisy few has been allowed to direct policy.

 

[Bosch]

I can't see how people are saying Just Stop Oil has failed.
Surely it's only started.

I also what the demographic of the people on this forum, probably middle aged men make up the majority.

How younger people and women view Just Stop Oil are probably not been reflected here or on traditional media

 

[dad_of_jon]

Lead by example? who's listening or taking note?

I'm referring to JSO, not nation states. And I'm not taking advice from the JSO hypocrites.

 

[Kerby]

So we clean up our act and it makes no difference to the planet whatsoever as we only add 1% of the pollution while India, China and America will carry on regardless, great, now you know why there is so much apathy here!

A huge amount of China’s pollution is caused by producing stiff for the Uk, EU and USA. Can we put a huge dent in it alone, maybe not. We are one of the richest nations on earth and we consume a disproportionate share of its resources. Our wealth and global influence makes us key (particularly when allied with the EU) in reducing the West’s monstrous consumption.

Yeah things will have to change, and yeah life may not be as convenient. Suck it up.

Oh and as a PS re importing food, the CO2 used to import tomatoes etc from places like Spain out of season, or asparagus from Peru is many times less than it takes to grow this produce in the UK.

 

[hoppyscotty]

I can't see how people are saying Just Stop Oil has failed.
Surely it's only started.

I also what the demographic of the people on this forum, probably middle aged men make up the majority.

How younger people and women view Just Stop Oil are probably not been reflected here or on traditional media

JSO has failed because the overwhelming majority of the British public, though sympathetic to their message, do not agree with their tactics and methods. Most normal people don't see the point in throwing tins of soup over priceless works of art, disrupting sporting events that they've spent their hard earned cash and time to go and see and don't much like being impeded when they have to get to work, get to hospital, take their kids to school etc. They can't join the dots between that behaviour and actually doing anything useful for anyone let alone the planet.

And at a time when we have to find many Trillions of pounds to fund our journey to net zero and make the changes they're demanding (and most of us ultimately already want) I'm not entirely sure disrupting and harming the UK economy is the best thing to do. If nothing else its not a very clever tactic...I think they need to go away and have a nice long think. And I don't mean a few minutes over a chat and a Latte made from the milk of almonds imported on a ship from overseas, coffee beans shipped from Indonesia via Los Angeles, served in a hybrid plastic lined cardboard cup that is not possible to recycle in a global coffee shop chain.

And as for the good old stereotype game..."why engage in someone in debate and back up your opinion when you can pick on some arbitrary feature about their appearance or background, take them out of the debate and not have to deal with them and remain in your nice comforting echo chamber", the problem with that is not all middle aged men (or any other demographic group) have the same opinions on everything or indeed anything.

Thankfully we have a principle in this country that everyones opinion and rights are equal under the law wether you're a Daily Mail reading red faced gammon, or a Liberal Lefty Guardian reading London Luvvie....though the overwhelming majority of us fall somewhere between those two extremes. After all, us brits are famous for being 'moderate'.

As to younger peoples views not being reflected...I'll point you to Greta Thunberg - both a young person and a woman....though again she doesn't represent the views and opinions of all young people or women or indeed young women...they're too is a great diversity of opinion within those three demographic groups.

 

[Kerby]

No of course i dont! but you'll get a lot more support from the public, maybe even some of the media when you go about it in the right way, rather than the current approach of the JSO, which is what this thread started upon i.e. has JSO failed. When you start to cost people time, cost people their hard earned money and even in rare cases cost people their health, then you are going to garner very little support which we see currently.
I see JSO is led by the same person(s) from extinction rebellion which has largely run its course in the media.. JSO has a lot more traction, but one day it'll fade because the country turns against their methods - will they just start a new group/campaign of disobedience of a worthwhile cause ?
So my point was a little disguised, in that if their true mandate is regarding climate change (which i don't think anyone disagrees that needs to happen) then lets see them doing it properly rather than their current tactics which tbh, i think a lot of the country is tired of seeing.

Public support doesn’t matter, they just need to make it not economically viable to be ignored.

 

[Brewnaldo]

How can folk possibly be "sympathetic to their message" though if they think that JSOs relatively tame methods are out of order

The message is that we are reaching a tipping point for the irreversible destruction of our planet and folk are just glibly hand waving them away with a "yeah, I agree with you... BUT....." retort.

You either agree with their message in which case it follows that more extreme, rather then less extreme action is what you would want. Or you don't agree with them, in which case by all means, get upset about orange powder.

You logically can't have both. This has been my point all along.

 

[hoppyscotty]

A huge amount of China’s pollution is caused by producing stiff for the Uk, EU and USA. Can we put a huge dent in it alone, maybe not. We are one of the richest nations on earth and we consume a disproportionate share of its resources. Our wealth and global influence makes us key (particularly when allied with the EU) in reducing the West’s monstrous consumption.

Yeah things will have to change, and yeah life may not be as convenient. Suck it up.

Oh and as a PS re importing food, the CO2 used to import tomatoes etc from places like Spain out of season, or asparagus from Peru is many times less than it takes to grow this produce in the UK.

Then don't eat tomatoes. Suck it up.

Also we only import 13% of our goods from China. But you're right. So let's take this to the next level.....if we avoid buying stuff from China then where do we buy stuff from? We are a nation that cannot sustain itself in anything so have to buy stuff in.

And the fact we might produce more CO2 per capita is irrelevant...the planet sees just CO2. It cares not where it comes from and who produces it. Take out the UK ant it makes not one jot of difference.

We product 1% of CO2 emissions and 2% if you take into account our global supply chains...I agree we have to make changes but we aint going to change or influence anything. To do our part we have to leverage the fact we're one of the richest and most advanced nations on earth and have the financial and technological means to contribute to the problem. Self sacrifice will get us nowhere but leveraging our strengths will deliver the solutions required.

 

[hoppyscotty]

How can folk possibly be "sympathetic to their message" though if they think that JSOs relatively tame methods are out of order

The message is that we are reaching a tipping point for the irreversible destruction of our planet and folk are just glibly hand waving them away with a "yeah, I agree with you... BUT....." retort.

You either agree with their message in which case it follows that more extreme, rather then less extreme action is what you would want. Or you don't agree with them, in which case by all means, get upset about orange powder.

You logically can't have both. This has been my point all along.

OK well then let's abandon logic, reason, intelligence and just all run around screaming and destroying things. That'll do it.

this all or nothing view is so damaging and is exactly what JSO is playing on. You're either with us or against us and if you're against us then we'll take you out. That's why people reject them.

 

[Brewnaldo]

Incidentally, I actually know a JSO activist quite well. He's a friend. I don't agree with him on everything. Some of his views are extreme to me. But that said, il repeat what he has to constantly repeat....

JSO are seeking to hold the UK government to their OWN climate targets in their own manifesto.

They are seeking an end to NEW oil projects in the UK as part of a transition away. No one is seeking to shut down the industry tomorrow.

Nonsense, diversionary tactics like "BUT YOU GOT A BUS TO THE PROTEST BUSES RUN ON FUEL YOU HYPOCRITE!!!!!!" have been addressed by JSO and various other activists numerous times but people choose to ignore the common sense logic and try for easy gotchas to discredit people who, let's not forget.... Apparently most of us agree with

 

[Brewnaldo]

OK well then let's abandon logic, reason, intelligence and just all run around screaming and destroying things. That'll do it.

this all or nothing view is so damaging and is exactly what JSO is playing on. You're either with us or against us and if you're against us then we'll take you out. That's why people reject them.

Take you out

Bit dramatic that is it not?

I've said before on this subject and il say again. There are an alarming number of people in the UK who would absolutely have told the likes of the Suffragettes and the civil rights movement that they agree with them, but they should.pipe down and make less noise

 

[hoppyscotty]

Take you out

Bit dramatic that is it not?

I've said before on this subject and il say again. There are an alarming number of people in the UK who would absolutely have told the likes of the Suffragettes and the civil rights movement that they agree with them, but they should.pipe down and make less noise

Well everyone is guilty of a bit of drama in these highly charged and emotionally driven things, but my basic premise is that logic and reason should be dictating things here and enter is no room for emotion and in fact us brits don't really do emotion that well and shy away from it and if anything dramatic emotional displays is a turn off.

Not withstanding what you've said about your friend...I have no doubt about many if not most of the activists motivations. I mean you don't superglue your hand to a motorway if you're not committed to your cause. I just don't think their tactics are particularly effective and have grave suspicions about the people at the top of the organisation and their true motives...not as if we've not seen this type of thing before and been duped.

As with most things in life it's a highly complex problem that requires a highly complex response even if things move more slowly than people would like. it's the end result that really matters. There are many ways to skin a cat and we're ultimately arguing over the ways of skinning.

Well as far as the civil rights movement is concerned then Martin Luther King who is credited as being the main influencer in this space was a very intelligent, well informed and considered individual and certainly wouldn't have advocated the sort of disruption that JSO are currently engaged in.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

Oh and as a PS re importing food, the CO2 used to import tomatoes etc from places like Spain out of season, or asparagus from Peru is many times less than it takes to grow this produce in the UK.

I hate tomatoes (sorry Clint) so if we never grew or imported another would be happy, i may start a Just Stop Tomatoes campaign

 

[Bosch]

Well everyone is guilty of a bit of drama in these highly charged and emotionally driven things, but my basic premise is that logic and reason should be dictating things here and enter is no room for emotion and in fact us brits don't really do emotion that well and shy away from it and if anything dramatic emotional displays is a turn off.

Not withstanding what you've said about your friend...I have no doubt about many if not most of the activists motivations. I mean you don't superglue your hand to a motorway if you're not committed to your cause. I just don't think their tactics are particularly effective and have grave suspicions about the people at the top of the organisation and their true motives...not as if we've not seen this type of thing before and been duped.

As with most things in life it's a highly complex problem that requires a highly complex response even if things move more slowly than people would like. it's the end result that really matters. There are many ways to skin a cat and we're ultimately arguing over the ways of skinning.

Well as far as the civil rights movement is concerned then Martin Luther King who is credited as being the main influencer in this space was a very intelligent, well informed and considered individual and certainly wouldn't have advocated the sort of disruption that JSO are currently engaged in.

Just Stop Oil are using classic Civil disobedience tactics, identical to the tactics used by the civil rights movement in Northern Ireland and the American South.

 

[Clarence]

Thankfully we have a principle in this country that everyones opinion and rights are equal under the law wether you're a Daily Mail reading red faced gammon, or a Liberal Lefty Guardian reading London Luvvie....though the overwhelming majority of us fall somewhere between those two extremes. After all, us brits are famous for being 'moderate'.

I have to take you up on that, there is no such principle. While I agree that everyone should be treated equally under the law, everyone's opinions are not usually addressed by the law unless your stated opinion offends under the law: you're not allowed to publically express racist opinions. The law certainly doesn't defend either your Luvvie opinions nor your Gammon opinions and it says nothing about them being equal.
Saying that everyone's entitled to their opinion is a million miles away from saying all opinions are equal.