Hoppy APAs and leaving the hops in the wort during fermentation.

[Tony1951]

My pans got a tap so the hops get left on once the worst drained, will have to take them out with a sieve and chuck in the fv with the wort.

I do the same with FO hops, though I sometimes end up forgetting to add them as a result.

Gottcha. :)

 

[Tony1951]

Cool thread! I am doing no chill BIAB, flame out in around 80c then leaving overnight and pitching to a fresh FV. Is there really a lot of difference cos i suppose i could throw the strainer hops back in? Just thinking about harvesting the yeast at the end. Could rack again before i dry hop. What do you guys do regarding yeast?

I had some poor results - no doubt my own fault, with no chill. It could also be that I was experimenting with a hop I now feel I don't like - admiral. It isn't clear to me what was happening, but I have abandoned no chill and also admiral. The beer is a million times better in my opinion. I know Myqul does no chill and he gets good results, so maybe it is my fault. All the same - if you are thinking of making a hoppy IPA and doing no chill, be careful about the utilisation you might be getting while it is hot - even 80c and all those high alpha hops. Myqul and others can advise you better than me.

 

[MyQul]

Cool thread! I am doing no chill BIAB, flame out in around 80c then leaving overnight and pitching to a fresh FV. Is there really a lot of difference cos i suppose i could throw the strainer hops back in? Just thinking about harvesting the yeast at the end. Could rack again before i dry hop. What do you guys do regarding yeast?

How long does it take you to get from 100c to 80c. With a wort chiller probably on a few mins but if you not using a wort chiller you've got to take into account that all the time your getting your wort from 100c to 80c the hops (both your bittering and 0min) are isomerising adding further ibu's

As Tony says I'm a no-chiller too and here's what I do for hopping:

Bittering hops: I always strain my bittering hops out of my wort before I put it in my no-chill cube (my old coopers FV). If you don't do this the bittering hops continue to isomerise in the hot wort as it continues to cool until it gets below 80C and you get a more bitter brew than you planned. You can also get around this by doing your bittering hop calculations for two hours as after this time no more isomerisation occurs.

Flavour hops: The volatile oils that go to make the flavourings are just that, volatile. So if you put your late additions into the boil, when you leave the wort to cool down overnight all the flavour volatile oils disapear with the steam from the hot wort.
I've found two alternative ways to do flavour additions.
1) Hop tea. Put your late editions in 1L of 75C water for 1hour then add this to your wort. You can add this at any stage once your wort is cool. I either add it at pitching time or at bottling time. You can even do two or more hop teas added at different times. I've have a bitter in the FV at the mo and am just expermenting with adding the hop debris in the FV too as I usually seive it out
2) What I call 'micro boil'. Take 3L from you 23L (if your doing less than 23L just scale it down) when your wort is cool just before you pitch. Bring it to the boil and add your flavour additions to that. So if your doing a 15min additon and a 5min addition. Bring the wort to the boil and add the 15 min straight away. Ten mins later add your 5 min addition and continue to let it boil for 5 min then turn off the heat and cool. If you want to do a 0min additon cooling 3L in the sink takes hardly any time at all so cool to 75Cish and add the 0min addition and let it steep for 20mins Then add this back to the main bulk of your wory then pitch the yeast.
I've found both of these methods work and you can combine them to do both a micro boil and a hop tea if you want

 

[Twostage]

So...

you're doing the bittering in the main boil and then doing the flavour additions 'after the fact' as a micro boil.

Neat.

 

[dad_of_jon]

Interesting article in byo about this https://byo.com/stories/issue/item/3267-high-abv-mr-wizard

extract below :-

So how can this be applied to homebrewing? For starters, if you do want to blanket a carboy or bottle with carbon dioxide you need to add the carbon dioxide to the bottom of the container. If you add it to the top of the container it will sink and mix with the air and never form a solid layer at the bottom. And if you use this method you need to diffuse the flow. A gas diffuser stone works great for this method. A cheap aquarium stone slipped onto the end of a gas stone will do the trick.

I use a bicycle co2 pump and did the flame trick to prove there was no oxygen in the bottom (this was tested in an old FV) it doesn't need to fill the bottling bucket just needs to cover the autosyphon tube really as the rising wort level displaces the gas as the bucket fills up.

 

[MyQul]

So...

you're doing the bittering in the main boil and then doing the flavour additions 'after the fact' as a micro boil.

Neat.

Yeah. Works really well.

 

[BeerCat]

How long does it take you to get from 100c to 80c. With a wort chiller probably on a few mins but if you not using a wort chiller you've got to take into account that all the time your getting your wort from 100c to 80c the hops (both your bittering and 0min) are isomerising adding further ibu's

As Tony says I'm a no-chiller too and here's what I do for hopping:

Bittering hops: I always strain my bittering hops out of my wort before I put it in my no-chill cube (my old coopers FV). If you don't do this the bittering hops continue to isomerise in the hot wort as it continues to cool until it gets below 80C and you get a more bitter brew than you planned. You can also get around this by doing your bittering hop calculations for two hours as after this time no more isomerisation occurs.

Flavour hops: The volatile oils that go to make the flavourings are just that, volatile. So if you put your late additions into the boil, when you leave the wort to cool down overnight all the flavour volatile oils disapear with the steam from the hot wort.
I've found two alternative ways to do flavour additions.
1) Hop tea. Put your late editions in 1L of 75C water for 1hour then add this to your wort. You can add this at any stage once your wort is cool. I either add it at pitching time or at bottling time. You can even do two or more hop teas added at different times. I've have a bitter in the FV at the mo and am just expermenting with adding the hop debris in the FV too as I usually seive it out
2) What I call 'micro boil'. Take 3L from you 23L (if your doing less than 23L just scale it down) when your wort is cool just before you pitch. Bring it to the boil and add your flavour additions to that. So if your doing a 15min additon and a 5min addition. Bring the wort to the boil and add the 15 min straight away. Ten mins later add your 5 min addition and continue to let it boil for 5 min then turn off the heat and cool. If you want to do a 0min additon cooling 3L in the sink takes hardly any time at all so cool to 75Cish and add the 0min addition and let it steep for 20mins Then add this back to the main bulk of your wory then pitch the yeast.
I've found both of these methods work and you can combine them to do both a micro boil and a hop tea if you want

Thanks for the info mate. I have been using brewers friend and the "no chill" box in which i add 20 mins for hop utilisation. It takes around 20 to get down to 80 but i sometimes help it along with cold water as my boiler only holds 22l. I dont do Flame out hops anymore mainly cos of the reasons you mentioned above but i dump them all in the FV and pour the 80c ish wort over them and leave overnight.
Your hop addition routine sounds most interesting so i have taken note and will also try this in future. You cant have enough hops as far as i am concerned.
I actually made a chiller 6 months ago but since following your no chill method i have not even wired it up.
Guess i must be doing something right cos the beer i bottled up today tasted superb (100g of dry hops) and was clear as a whistle.
Anyway hats of to you as i would be farting around with all sorts of stuff i i hadn't copied you. One of my aims in brewing is to wash up as little stuff as possible and seems to be working out well.
And big up to this forum. Never imagined i would be making quality beer only a year on! :thumb:

 

[MyQul]

Thanks for the info mate. I have been using brewers friend and the "no chill" box in which i add 20 mins for hop utilisation. It takes around 20 to get down to 80 but i sometimes help it along with cold water as my boiler only holds 22l. I dont do Flame out hops anymore mainly cos of the reasons you mentioned above but i dump them all in the FV and pour the 80c ish wort over them and leave overnight.
Your hop addition routine sounds most interesting so i have taken note and will also try this in future. You cant have enough hops as far as i am concerned.
I actually made a chiller 6 months ago but since following your no chill method i have not even wired it up.
Guess i must be doing something right cos the beer i bottled up today tasted superb (100g of dry hops) and was clear as a whistle.
Anyway hats of to you as i would be farting around with all sorts of stuff i i hadn't copied you. One of my aims in brewing is to wash up as little stuff as possible and seems to be working out well.
And big up to this forum. Never imagined i would be making quality beer only a year on! :thumb:

I also read somewhere or other that a 0min addition left to no chill is like a regular 20min addition.But I looked around for other ways to get flavour additions into my beer as due to my bad back there's no way I could lift 17L of near boiling wort to get it into my sink without either a trip to the chiropractor or a trip to casualty

 

[dad_of_jon]

I had some poor results - no doubt my own fault, with no chill. It could also be that I was experimenting with a hop I now feel I don't like - admiral. It isn't clear to me what was happening, but I have abandoned no chill and also admiral. The beer is a million times better in my opinion. I know Myqul does no chill and he gets good results, so maybe it is my fault. All the same - if you are thinking of making a hoppy IPA and doing no chill, be careful about the utilisation you might be getting while it is hot - even 80c and all those high alpha hops. Myqul and others can advise you better than me.

I do most of what myqul does re: no chill and i've used admiral, but I only do a 15 min boil as I use extract mainly.

I chuck hops in then say 50g and then 100g dry hop after fermentation has died down, very happy with the end result.

 

[BeerCat]

I also read somewhere or other that a 0min addition left to no chill is like a regular 20min addition.But I looked around for other ways to get flavour additions into my beer as due to my bad back there's no way I could lift 17L of near boiling wort to get it into my sink without either a trip to the chiropractor or a trip to casualty

Thats pretty much what brewwersfriend says hence the 20mins added to their brew calc for no chill. I highly recommend BIAB no chill to anyone wanting to get into larger quantities of AG. All you need is a boiler and some FV's. Simple. Cheers everyone

 

[Tony1951]

I do most of what myqul does re: no chill and i've used admiral, but I only do a 15 min boil as I use extract mainly.

I chuck hops in then say 50g and then 100g dry hop after fermentation has died down, very happy with the end result.

Admiral may be a nice hop for some. Maybe if I hadn't done three big brews in about eight days with hour long boils and Admiral as the bittering hop and then kept the brew in an insulated boiler/mash tun cooling over about thirty six hours to 20C, things could have been different. I ended up with about sixty litres of beer that I didn't enjoy by the time I got to taste the brews. I still have a barrel of it in the garage which I should really tip down the drain.

Anyway - like a poisoned rat, I'm keeping away from no - chill and Admiral. :)

To be honest, I'm very happy with what I've been making lately.

 

[Hoppyland]

Bittering hops: I always strain my bittering hops out of my wort before I put it in my no-chill cube (my old coopers FV). If you don't do this the bittering hops continue to isomerise in the hot wort as it continues to cool until it gets below 80C and you get a more bitter brew than you planned. You can also get around this by doing your bittering hop calculations for two hours as after this time no more isomerisation occurs.

Flavour hops: The volatile oils that go to make the flavourings are just that, volatile. So if you put your late additions into the boil, when you leave the wort to cool down overnight all the flavour volatile oils disapear with the steam from the hot wort.

I've never tried chilling, so all of my recipes are designed for my style of brewing. For bittering hops, I use a very high-alpha (typically Warrior), for a full 60 min boil. A rate of 15g for a 28l brew seems to suit my tastes, and I just leave them in the boiler to cool overnight.
For flavour, well I can see the problem here. But it doesn't seem to be a real problem for me in practice. I add late hops when I switch off the heat, and just let them sit there overnight with the lid on my boiling pan. Co-incidentally, I've just put on a brew this evening. Nipping out into the kitchen, I find that I can't keep my hand on the side of the pan as its still too hot. But I can't smell hops. My thought is that, if I can't smell the volatiles, then they cannot be escaping. The pan is well made, with a fairly close-fitting lid though.

 

[MyQul]

I've never tried chilling, so all of my recipes are designed for my style of brewing. For bittering hops, I use a very high-alpha (typically Warrior), for a full 60 min boil. A rate of 15g for a 28l brew seems to suit my tastes, and I just leave them in the boiler to cool overnight.
For flavour, well I can see the problem here. But it doesn't seem to be a real problem for me in practice. I add late hops when I switch off the heat, and just let them sit there overnight with the lid on my boiling pan. Co-incidentally, I've just put on a brew this evening. Nipping out into the kitchen, I find that I can't keep my hand on the side of the pan as its still too hot. But I can't smell hops. My thought is that, if I can't smell the volatiles, then they cannot be escaping. The pan is well made, with a fairly close-fitting lid though.

When I first started no chilling I just put the late hops in as normal and left it overnight. I then started doing hop teas for my late hop additons and I found there's a VERY marked difference

 

[Hoppyland]

When I first started no chilling I just put the late hops in as normal and left it overnight. I then started doing hop teas for my late hop additons and I found there's a VERY marked difference

Excellent, I'll give this a go!

 

[MyQul]

Excellent, I'll give this a go!

Give the hop tea and the micro boils a go and see what you think

 

[Hoppyland]

Give the hop tea and the micro boils a go and see what you think

I will..... :)
Might be a slight problem of when, though. We're renting a (hovel?) at the moment. Supposed to be building a house....... slow progress. For some reason, I'm finding brewing beer a much more attractive option than planning process etc.... Can't understand why :lol:
But I don't have as much time for experimenting as I'd like.
However, this kind of issue is exactly why brewing is so interesting (apart from the product!). There really are such a lot of nebulous questions. The scientist in me wants a perfect answer to them all. The artist in me doesn't want any dogmatic answers to any of them, just freedom to go with what feels right.

I reckon that he beauty of it is that both approaches can be equally valid. (I guess I'll always go for the scientific approach, though :whistle:)

 

[MyQul]

Despite my Bitter having a soapy off flavour (which I'm hoping will condition out) I think this technique works really well. In fact almost too well.

As I mentioned in my soap off flavour thread

http://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/showthread.php?p=552940#post552940

It has a nice strong honey aroma from the EKG as if I dry hopped it, even though I didn't . It also has a powerful floral flavour also from the EKG. I definately think this needs at least a couple of weeks condioning to round out and blend the flavours. But I definately think I will revisit this method

 

[dad_of_jon]

Admiral may be a nice hop for some. Maybe if I hadn't done three big brews in about eight days with hour long boils and Admiral as the bittering hop and then kept the brew in an insulated boiler/mash tun cooling over about thirty six hours to 20C, things could have been different. I ended up with about sixty litres of beer that I didn't enjoy by the time I got to taste the brews. I still have a barrel of it in the garage which I should really tip down the drain.

Anyway - like a poisoned rat, I'm keeping away from no - chill and Admiral. :)

To be honest, I'm very happy with what I've been making lately.

Home Brewing is all about what works for you if others like it thats a bonus.:grin:

 

[Twostage]

Irish Red made and pitched over the trub. I think I might have miscalculated the recipe though as it looks more dark brown than red. Think I used twice as much roast barley as was required. It will probably end up as beer though :grin:

Yep, brown rather than red but really nice. Fermentation took 48 hours and I was planning to keg it last weekend but ran out of time. Kegged yesterday, force carbed and it passed the critic test.

Does anyone else feel guilty pouring yeast down the drain ?

 

[BeerCat]

Yep, brown rather than red but really nice. Fermentation took 48 hours and I was planning to keg it last weekend but ran out of time. Kegged yesterday, force carbed and it passed the critic test.

Does anyone else feel guilty pouring yeast down the drain ?

Definitely.