Hop mashing

[Hazelwood Brewery]

Anybody tried hop mashing to make their IPA's or any other style of beer.

Yes. I’ve used mash hopping for thiols, for bitterness, and for complexing metal ions to improve stalling. All with hoppy beer. I’m pretty sure all of this is somewhere on this site if you search and some of it carries links to the appropriate source/research.

From my own limited experience…

I haven’t found any improvement from my thiol experiments. In fact, on occasion the hoppiness in the finished beer tastes more like an alcohol free IPA which to me is a bit artificial/perfumed - not what I wanted and not to my taste.

Bittering is much the same as boil additions but you need to adjust utilisation because of the lower temperatures, much like a hopstand/whirlpool. Bear in mind if you mash hop with pellets they will disintegrate and end up in the boil. Leaf hops are removed with the grain.

Complexing metal ions may be more successful but because I haven’t brewed dozens of batches it could be argued I might have just done a better job of keeping oxygen out of my beer through the brewing process. I do have a bit more confidence in this one though because I’m pretty consistent when it comes to my processes.

As a side note on anti-oxidants I once brewed a beer with lemongrass, geranium leaves, and rose petals because these all contain far higher levels of the oils we cherish in hops and that beer was still clean and hoppy after more than six months. It even got placed (2nd I think) in the American IPAs competition. I unfortunately never got round to brewing a split batch with the three to see if one of these on it’s own could achieve the same results.

 

[An Ankoù]

Yes. I’ve used mash hopping for thiols, for bitterness, and for complexing metal ions to improve stalling. All with hoppy beer. I’m pretty sure all of this is somewhere on this site if you search and some of it carries links to the appropriate source/research.

From my own limited experience…

I haven’t found any improvement from my thiol experiments. In fact, on occasion the hoppiness in the finished beer tastes more like an alcohol free IPA which to me is a bit artificial/perfumed - not what I wanted and not to my taste.

Bittering is much the same as boil additions but you need to adjust utilisation because of the lower temperatures, much like a hopstand/whirlpool. Bear in mind if you mash hop with pellets they will disintegrate and end up in the boil. Leaf hops are removed with the grain.

Complexing metal ions may be more successful but because I haven’t brewed dozens of batches it could be argued I might have just done a better job of keeping oxygen out of my beer through the brewing process. I do have a bit more confidence in this one though because I’m pretty consistent when it comes to my processes.

As a side note on anti-oxidants I once brewed a beer with lemongrass, geranium leaves, and rose petals because these all contain far higher levels of the oils we cherish in hops and that beer was still clean and hoppy after more than six months. It even got placed (2nd I think) in the American IPAs competition. I unfortunately never got round to brewing a split batch with the three to see if one of these on it’s own could achieve the same results.

Did you discard the hops with the spent malt or did you contain them in a bag and use the same, bagged hops in the boil?
The reason I ask, is that, if there are any thiol changes to be had, it may well be due to something that has changed in the mashed hops, which, if you discard them early, won't carry over to the boil. (Big IF of course).

 

[Hazelwood Brewery]

Did you discard the hops with the spent malt or did you contain them in a bag and use the same, bagged hops in the boil?
The reason I ask, is that, if there are any thiol changes to be had, it may well be due to something that has changed in the mashed hops, which, if you discard them early, won't carry over to the boil. (Big IF of course).

Yes, discarded with the grain.

Thiols (or more correctly “Thiol precursors” - biotransformation during the early stage of fermentation cleaves the thiols from the precursor compounds) are volatile oils so I suspect they are mostly boiled away. Some are more survivable (less volatile!) and you might have a point that more could be extracted by leaving the hops in longer although diminishing returns would apply.

I think if Thiols is your aim then a heavy dose of hops known to have higher levels of bound thiols (such as Cascade) in the hopstand might give better results. You need to compliment this of course with a yeast that’s good at releasing these bound thiols from the precursors.

 

[An Ankoù]

It seems counter intuitive to chelate the heavier metals and then boil the same hops with the wort so I reckon it depends on your objectives.
I'd prefer to deal with the metals beforehand and avoid adding known occidants like Mn with the adjuncts.
Apart from that, I started out by trying to get more out of my cascade for a particular recipe, but now I'm determined to find out if mash hopping makes any kind of flavour difference (for good or ill) at all.
Regarding the geranium leaves etc, aren't they more likely to respond to, say, hydrolisis with beta-glucanase than liberate thiols?

 

[Hazelwood Brewery]

It seems counter intuitive to chelate the heavier metals and then boil the same hops with the wort so I reckon it depends on your objectives.
I'd prefer to deal with the metals beforehand and avoid adding known occidants like Mn with the adjuncts.
Apart from that, I started out by trying to get more out of my cascade for a particular recipe, but now I'm determined to find out if mash hopping makes any kind of flavour difference (for good or ill) at all.
Regarding the geranium leaves etc, aren't they more likely to respond to, say, hydrolisis with beta-glucanase than liberate thiols?

All sounds good but I’m at the pub so will pick up the chat later

 

[Rodcx500z]

Exercise you right to not read things

I would but i don't want to, i am happy at the level i am at, if i want the fancy stuff i go and buy it on the basis i don't want a corny full of Belgium beer or that nepia orange squash

 

[Sadfield]

I would but i don't want to, i am happy at the level i am at, if i want the fancy stuff i go and buy it on the basis i don't want a corny full of Belgium beer or that nepia orange squash

I meant stop reading threads that contain ideas, information or discussion beyond your chosen level. Just stop reading them rather than constantly complaining they are tosh or pointless. It smacks of insecurity.

 

[Hazelwood Brewery]

It seems counter intuitive to chelate the heavier metals and then boil the same hops with the wort so I reckon it depends on your objectives.
I'd prefer to deal with the metals beforehand and avoid adding known occidants like Mn with the adjuncts.
Apart from that, I started out by trying to get more out of my cascade for a particular recipe, but now I'm determined to find out if mash hopping makes any kind of flavour difference (for good or ill) at all.
Regarding the geranium leaves etc, aren't they more likely to respond to, say, hydrolisis with beta-glucanase than liberate thiols?

Back home now. Actually, I’m not sure I have much to add here. Go for your trials with mash hopping if it’s of interest and let us know your thoughts.

Regarding your last point I have no idea, I’m an O’level chemistry student rather than anything more accomplished. To be fair I wasn’t really looking at thiols with these biological additives, being more interested in the essential oils they bring. The anti oxidative qualities became more interesting after the fact once I realised the beer was surprisingly long lasting.

 

[Rodcx500z]

I meant stop reading threads that contain ideas, information or discussion beyond your chosen level. Just stop reading them rather than constantly complaining they are tosh or pointless. It smacks of insecurity.

Hang on a minute who is complaining i was just saying i don't get it. it's a hobby not the best brewer in the world compatition, you seem to have an avatar that suits, i have not insulted anyone in this thread least of all you, enjoy your elite brewing and stop pushing peoples buttons

 

[An Ankoù]

The anti oxidative qualities became more interesting after the fact once I realised the beer was surprisingly long lasting.

That's interesting. I wasn't looking at this at all, but it's an advantage not worth throwing away. I wonder if, as I intend to use the hops in the boil, the complexed metals will stay bound during the boil. Don't see why not. I'm not a chemist either and I struggle with a lot of this. I'll certainly report back to the forum.

 

[Sadfield]

Pomegranate extract gets a mention in this as a mash addition.

 

[Sadfield]

Hang on a minute who is complaining i was just saying i don't get it.

What's not to get? There's ******* loads of threads on oxidation and loss of hoppiness littering this forum. There's evidence that mash hopping reduces oxidation. It's not elite brewing, or rocket science. Nor is adding hops to the mash a new technique in British brewing. And it's not a difficult process, and requires no extra equipment.

Yet you keep returning to the thread to add nothing constructive. You are right though it's not a competition, that's why I don't enter the many forum competitions. Just trying to be the best brewer I can, much in the same way other hobbyists strive to do the best they can, be they photographers, painters, bakers, diyers.

 

[Hazelwood Brewery]

That's interesting. I wasn't looking at this at all, but it's an advantage not worth throwing away. I wonder if, as I intend to use the hops in the boil, the complexed metals will stay bound during the boil. Don't see why not. I'm not a chemist either and I struggle with a lot of this. I'll certainly report back to the forum.

Yeah, I think they will remain bound otherwise the benefit I observed would not have not persisted?

 

[Sadfield]

https://beernouveau.co.uk/heritage-brewing-primer/

There's an interesting point about mash hopping rendering the mash unsuitable for selling as animal feed. Perhaps brewers new of many advantages of mash hopping, but the commercial and logistical implications became a factor. Another point that I'd forgotten about, that they aid conversion in the mash.

 

[foxy]

https://beernouveau.co.uk/heritage-brewing-primer/

There's an interesting point about mash hopping rendering the mash unsuitable for selling as animal feed. Perhaps brewers new of many advantages of mash hopping, but the commercial and logistical implications became a factor. Another point that I'd forgotten about, that they aid conversion in the mash.

The hop enzymes aided conversion in the mash because there was less enzymatic activity during the mash with the old heritage malts.
As the article says, and with modern modified malts it’s generally seen not to be worth the extra effort and cost.
I, as well as many home brewers, don't have problems with staling even though we have 4 to 500 ppb of DO in the headspace, the reason being they don't get shifted around and shaken. They remain motionless until consumed.
I like this reply from, Tell Me About Mash Hopping in American Home Brewers Association post.

You might get some flavor, some say you can get a little more IBUs. But at mash temp the isomorization reaction will be slow, and you might get 1 IBU? It might help with the run off. I have done it as in the old Pliny the Elder recipe that had mash hops, and I did it without the mash hops. With all of the other hops in there, no difference was noticed in the beers.

I think it is a way to use more hops, so one can say my beer was even mashed hopped to get all that hoppy goodness in to the beer. Makes one feel superior. Until you hear about adding hops to the sparge water. Then you feel inadequate.

 

[Sadfield]

"A question of ongoing debate is the role of oxidised isohumulones as precursors of carbonyls, e.g., 3-methyl-butanal, that act as stale flavours12. If we were to fully utilize our gained knowledge about hops and flavour stability in beer, a sensible hopping regime would be to use hop polyphenols in the beginning of boil (or even in the mash)in the form of spent hops or aroma hops, then dose a significant portion of aroma hops or bitter hops at the end of boil or in the whirlpool to contribute a high amount of residual alpha acids, beta acids, and hop aroma compounds. The bittering would be accomplished with isomerised products to achieve a better bitter stability due to a better cis/trans ratio. A further additional dry-hopping could be implemented to further enhance flavour stability."


125th Anniversary Review: The Role of Hops in Brewing - The Institute of Brewing & Distilling

 

[Sadfield]

"GM (genetically modified) yeast strains aren't allowed in commercial beers in many countries (e.g., Canada, New Zealand). As a result there are labs working with wild isolates capable of freeing thiols for co-fermentations"

https://www.themadfermentationist.com/2023/05/are-thiols-scam-thiolized-yeast.html?m=1#:~:text=No, but they also aren,competing against other strong aromatics.

Another thought on historical use of mash hops. British Ales and IPAs were often infected by wild yeast, and revered for it. It's possible that Brewers found mash hopped beers favourable, without knowing of bound Thiols and antioxidants, much in the same way as they knew how to ferment keeping beers that lasted years without knowing what Sacchromyces and Brettanomyces were. Mash hopping going out of favour with the demise of stock ale. If you've ever used Brett C, you'll know it produces some very tropical flavours from pale malt and Goldings.