Heat Source Pumps.

[Northern_Brewer]

Hey northen brewer man I do not get personal On any of these threads.
Personly i recocnise your own contribution And I hope i will contiue to be your friend.

Hey John - it's never personal with me, I don't like to see people losing trust based on half-truths and minority opinions. There's enough fake news and propaganda in the world so I try to clarify stuff when I can, I know how this kind of stuff can swirl around out there.

Solar panels have been around for donkeys years why don't they give us a grant to install them instead of heat pumps that will be all but useless for many of us..

If you mean solar thermal - the main problem is that they produce most heat when you don't need it, they're not so good in the depths of a British winter. It's a good option for things like swimming pools, when you're likely to be using them at the height of summer.

Heat pumps aren't so bad - a lot of the problems is that at the moment there seems to be a much bigger difference between the bad ones and good ones that we're used to with boilers. It's a bit like buying British Leyland and then saying that all cars are terrible.

I was one of the last to benefit from the old Feed In Tariff (FiT) when I had my Solar panels installed at the end of 2011. As with any other subsidised effort though, it just over inflated the cost of the panels. I paid £12,000 for my 3.2kw installation and get paid over 60p for every KwH the system generates, plus the free electricity. When the FiT was reduced from 60p to 20p shortly after, the cost of a 3.2kw system dropped to about £4,000.

It's more the other way round - FiTs were reduced because the global price of panels dropped as the big factories in China got up to speed. For instance, this is how costs dropped in Australia around that time - you can't claim that was because of British installers changing their prices in response to changing British subsidies (FiTs were introduced in 2010 and the big cut was in 2012) :

 

[Chippy_Tea]

If you mean solar thermal - the main problem is that they produce most heat when you don't need it,

I meant solar PV -

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I meant solar PV -

But PV is solving a different problem to heat pumps. PV is for generating electricity and renewable electricity isn't the problem - at the time of writing, 54% of British electricity is renewable, plus another 8% nuclear. Obviously there's more to go, but at least we're well on the way. The problem is heating homes.

Right now it looks like the mainstream option for heating homes will be through electricity rather than through hydrogen. So there's a problem of how to turn that electricity into a warm house - PV is irrelevant for that problem, it's a matter of choosing between direct heating with electricity - immersion heaters, storage heaters etc which turn electricity into heat 1:1, or using a heat pump where you have the potential to turn one unit of electricity into more than one unit of heat.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

So there's a problem of how to turn that electricity into a warm house - PV is irrelevant for that problem,

Why combine an electric boiler with solar PV
Pairing an electric combi boiler with solar panels is a great idea for a number of reasons, including:

• Free fuel for you broiler
• Lower electricity bills
• Reduced carbon footprint
• Less reliance on rising fuel prices
• Power other electric appliances for free too

https://www.boilerguide.co.uk/articles/running-electric-combi-boiler-solar-pv

 

[Benfleet Brewery]

you can't claim that was because of British installers changing their prices in response to changing British subsidies

I can’t find any figures to show how the prices have changed but as soon as the FiT was reduced the cost of installing PV system halved overnight, honestly.

Edit - In the UK

 

[Leon103]

@Chippy_Tea might want to merge this if there is a thread out there, I couldn't find anything.

Due to health issues I am eligible for government grants to improve my energy rating and move away from oil heating. But I would have to have solar, air source pump and insulation. My biggest worry is the air source pump, I hear they are expensive to run and difficult to find people to service/fix when issues arisw. The company said the solar panels will run the air source - i can add a battery at my own cost.


Does anyone have experiences with air source? Anyone else go through the grants scheme? What was your experience?

 

[Chippy_Tea]

Heat pumps still too expensive, government warned​

Heat pumps are still too expensive and too few people know about them, the government has been warned.

Despite its target, only 55,000 heat pumps were sold in the UK in 2022. Sales must increase dramatically, said the UK's spending watchdog.
To meet UK climate change targets, the government wants to install 600,000 low-carbon heat pumps annually by 2028.
The government told the BBC it was "helping rather than forcing families to install heat pumps".
The National Audit Office (NAO) said ministers were optimistic to think that target could be reached by 2028.
It urged the government to increase public awareness of the green technology and work to reduce costs.
Its director Simon Bittlestone told the BBC: "The government has got some big questions to answer about how it plans to decarbonise home heating."
Heating in UK homes produces 18% of the country's greenhouse gas emissions, which are responsible for climate change.
Heat pumps use electricity rather than gas like boilers and, as the UK produces more electricity from renewable energy, fewer emissions will be created by heating our homes this way.

• How do heat pumps work and how do I get one?
• The truth about heat pumps and the power needed to run them

But despite the government's target, only 55,000 heat pumps were sold in the UK in 2022.
In its report, the NAO said that the main reasons for the low uptake are:

• limited public awareness of the technology
• the higher costs relative to gas boilers
• the lack of long-term financial support for households

The National Infrastructure Commission (NIC) estimates that air source heat pumps - the most common type for households - costs £10,000 more than a gas boiler on average.
But some energy companies are offering heat pumps as low as £500 with the government grant.
The government told the BBC it had already launched its Welcome Home to Energy Efficiency campaign, which provides information on heat pumps.
But Dr Richard Hauxwell-Baldwin, research and campaigns manager at industry body the MCS Foundation, said: "Information provision is not enough. It is an important first step, but we need consistency, clarity and certainty in the messaging."
He said that at the moment the government has not ruled out hydrogen as an alternative to heat pumps, and this means some gas engineers are recommending homeowners to wait before pursuing heat pumps.
The NAO also drew attention to the government's indecision on hydrogen heating. Last year it cancelled a number of trials designed to gather more information on the feasibility of the technology.
Industry representatives and local authorities told the NAO this uncertainty makes it difficult to invest in heat pumps, which would help to drive down prices for consumers.
The NAO has recommended the government makes a decision on whether hydrogen will be part of the UK's energy home heating system before 2026.
In response to the report, a Department for Energy Security and Net Zero spokesperson said the Boiler Upgrade Scheme - which offers grants for heat pumps - was helping families with the cost.
The grant was increased last year and applications grew by nearly 40% as a result. On Thursday, the government announced there will no longer be a mandatory requirement for insulation before applying for the grant.
Izzy Woolgar, director at Centre for Net Zero, an independent research unit within Octopus Energy, told the BBC: "It's common knowledge that the UK is falling behind Europe when it comes to decarbonising our homes."
But she welcomed the government's decision to remove the insulation requirement for the grant and said "it could make a big difference" for transferring the UK to heat pumps.
Last week, the government also announced that it is delaying by a year the implementation of fines for boiler manufacturers who do not hit heat pump sales targets.
Jess Ralston, energy analyst at research group the Energy and Climate Intelligence Unit (ECIU), said that this delay is another example of "dithering and U-turns by No 10" which has caused the delay in heat pump rollout.
She said the decision by the government, "only benefits the big boiler manufacturers and keeps the UK reliant on gas for longer".

BBC News

 

[jof]

Of course.
It cost £3K to replace a gas boiler with a newer model & it works with the existing hot water tank & radiators.
It costs 10K for a heat pump, then you need bigger radiators & an immersion heater in the hot water tank to stop legionnaires. And any energy efficiency savings are lost in the price difference between a unit of gas & a unit of electricity.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

& an immersion heater in the hot water tank to stop legionnaires.

Also for the days in winter when you haven't got enough heat being produced to keep the house warm and make hot water for bathing etc.

I will not install a heat pump until i have no choice, at my age that will probably never happen.

 

[BarnBrian]

Also for the days in winter when you haven't got enough heat being produced to keep the house warm and make hot water for bathing etc.

I will not install a heat pump until i have no choice, at my age that will probably never happen.

I've had air source heat pumps for 10 years. They still work in mid winter down to about minus 20. I wouldn't go back to a gas boiler.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

I've had air source heat pumps for 10 years. They still work in mid winter down to about minus 20. I wouldn't go back to a gas boiler.

This is the problem views on these things swing from brilliant to a complete waste of time no one has any confidence, i certainly dont want to replace all radiators and piping throughout the house (mine is very small diameter) and in a 2 up 2 down i have no where to put a huge water tank, as has been said throughout the thread these things are designed for well insulated modern houses where you have room for all the kit not the likes of me.

The guy in the video below paid £7000 a few years ago i wonder what the price will be if you have to remove all pipes and radiators and start from scratch.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

This is another thing that will put people off (see video)

There are going to be installers springing up all over the place as HP's become popular these installers will have little knowledge built up over time so i fear we are going to end up with cowboy companies springing up installing the things and shocking stories like this where the company has gone bust already.

Noisy fan


5 year old system needs replacing after cowboys installed it

 

[BarnBrian]

This is the problem views on these things swing from brilliant to a complete waste of time no one has any confidence, i certainly dont want to replace all radiators and piping throughout the house (mine is very small diameter) and in a 2 up 2 down i have no where to put a huge water tank, as has been said throughout the thread these things are designed for well insulated modern houses where you have room for all the kit not the likes of me.
The guy in the video below paid £7000 a few years ago i wonder what the price will be if you have to remove all pipes and radiators and start from scratch.

We didn't change the radiators or pipework, admittedly we had to have a buffer tank installed. We run them 24/7 but on much lower temperature than a conventional boiler.

 

[Leon103]

I've had air source heat pumps for 10 years. They still work in mid winter down to about minus 20. I wouldn't go back to a gas boiler.

Can you elaborate on your experience. As mentioned above it is something that I am considering as part of the government grants which would also cover solar. We already for the large hot water tank (designed for solar heated water).

Some people locally have complained about the companies being used to install some of these systems.

 

[rybinss]

Heat pumps still too expensive, government warned​

Heat pumps are still too expensive and too few people know about them, the government has been warned.

had to laugh at the stock photo of guy installing the heatpump. What's that behind him. Oh a shed load of logs,wonder what they are used for? Tbf we use the aircon/heatpump in spain and it works ok but not in extreme cold that we have here in winter. Still have a water heater for showers etc though.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

We didn't change the radiators or pipework, admittedly we had to have a buffer tank installed. We run them 24/7 but on much lower temperature than a conventional boiler.

And there is the problem installing these things is not as simple as swapping a gas boiler its going to mean a huge upheaval and expense for many, the water tank will be one of the biggest problems the olds here will remember the big copper water tank in the airing cupboards back in the day and how much space that took up those spaces no longer exist and i cannot see people wanting to go back to having a big water tank in a cupboards in a bedroom, how are people in very small houses of flats going to make room?

Fortunately we still have 11 years before we will be forced to move to HP's when our boilers fail so if my gas boiler lasts another 10 years and i am still here i will probably replace it with a new one before the cut off date.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

had to laugh at the stock photo of guy installing the heatpump. What's that behind him. Oh a shed load of logs,wonder what they are used for? Tbf we use the aircon/heatpump in spain and it works ok but not in extreme cold that we have here in winter. Still have a water heater for showers etc though.

I cannot see anyone giving up their wood burners and i dont blame them, people are *not choosing to move to HP's they are being forced.

*obviously some are choosing but the majority of us will be forced as the option to use gas boilers will be removed.

 

[jof]

Right, so here goes:
Cost to replace old gas boiler with new one in daughter's house =3k

Estimate to fit heat pump & parafanalia in our 3 bed electric only semi, more than 20k + upgrade to water pipes needed as pressure wasn't high enough & the inverter box would be sat in the middle of the back garden, as it couldn't be put anywhere convenient.

In the end I went for air conditioning heat pump at 7k and another 10k for solar & batteries.
It works better than the old storage heater & is significantly cheaper to run.
Ok I'm still heating water overnight on economy 7 and charging 8kwh of battery during the winter, but this month's electric is £80 all in.

If I went for the heat pumps they are trying to push, I wouldn't have been able to do solar too & I would have lost a pantry worth of space to the warm water cylinder.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

It costs 10K for a heat pump

Octopus prices start at £500 after the subsidy, they say average installation cost is £5,565 :
https://octopus.energy/heat-pump-FAQ/

, then you need bigger radiators & an immersion heater in the hot water tank to stop legionnaires.

No you don't - high-temperature heat pumps produce water at the same temperature as a boiler, so can use exactly the same radiators.

And any energy efficiency savings are lost in the price difference between a unit of gas & a unit of electricity.

You're still using a lot less energy. And that price difference is going to change as "green" costs are moved from electricity to gas.

Also most people can't make their own gas (careful!) but can make their own electricity with solar panels etc.

Also for the days in winter when you haven't got enough heat being produced to keep the house warm and make hot water for bathing etc.

Half of all houses in Norway have heat pumps, are you saying that it's colder with you than Norway?

 

[Chippy_Tea]

Half of all houses in Norway have heat pumps, are you saying that it's colder with you than Norway?

As has been discussed several times houses in cold countries are designed to keep heat in and cold out our houses (especially old ones) are not good at doing that even with extra insulation.