Gypsum Taste.

[nixhaz]

+1 for boiling it. I can get my 296ppm alkalinity water down to about 40 with a 30 minute boil.

 

[UKSkydiver]

I'm in Thames Water area too - but further up the M40

Stick your postcode in here: Check water quality in your area | Thames Water and it will give you a water report so you have an idea. I know the values are an average, but better than what you have now.

 

[jceg316]

I brew with London water, it's really good for malty and dark styles but not so great for anything hoppy. I don't use Ashbeck water but use AMS/CRS to soften and epsom salts to change the chloride/sulphate ratio. Using my water report and a water calculator I managed to make some really good IPAs. I'm not so huge on hoppy styles as I used to be which is quite lucky considering the water I have to work with!

 

[CliffC]

Lots of people make really nice beer using London water without using expensive kit. I used to think London water was no good for brewing because of the taste out of the tap and used Tesco's Ashbeck for lighter beers. I was quite surprised to find a few noted microbreweries that use London water and don't do much in the way of treatment. I now use tap water for almost everything, but modify it with brewing salts and acid / acidulated malt.

It's worth checking your mash pH is within the desirable range as this can have a dramatic effect on the final product. It can be hard to achieve this in London with light beers unless you treat the water (depending on the recipe and the water chemistry in your area).

The free version of the Brewers Friend app has a water chemistry calculator. You input your water profile and can add different amounts of chemicals to find out the effect on your beer and the mash pH. I am sure there are a other apps that do the same thing. It's just the one I've been using.

 

[Pjam]

but be aware that this will be an historical average and it does vary a bit day to day - the recent dry weather will mean they're using more carbonate-rich groundwater for instance) :

Yes, this would explain my mixed results.

 

[Edison]

If you were considering using an RO filter to strip virtually everything out and starting with a clean slate, this is the filter I bought 5 years ago and it’s still going strong:

https://www.waterfilterman.co.uk/fi...scus-fish-marine.html#/22-add_ons-standard_ro
Takes between 8-10 hours to get ~35l and it does waste some water in the process, so maybe not ideal if you’re on a water meter, but it’s pretty compact (~40x30x10cm).

 

[Edison]

FYI, just checked this RO filter with a calibrated Salifert kit. After nearly 5 years and over 1200l and 30 brews it’s still outputting water at ~2.5ppm CaCO3. My tap water is 131ppm CaCO3.

 

[foxbat]

FYI, just checked this RO filter with a calibrated Salifert kit. After nearly 5 years and over 1200l and 30 brews it’s still outputting water at ~2.5ppm CaCO3. My tap water is 131ppm CaCO3.

How much water does an RO kit 'waste' for every litre produced and can you capture that waste water for use elsewhere like washing and watering the garden?

 

[lancon]

I'm just about to order a Murphy's Expert Lab Water Analysis report through BrewUK. Anyone had one of these done before?

I had one of those, very good but same result for AMS as original HBF water calc though their DWB addition rather than gypsum/epsom salt

 

[Edison]

How much water does an RO kit 'waste' for every litre produced and can you capture that waste water for use elsewhere like washing and watering the garden?

I haven’t measured it myself, but I read it could be 3-4 litres waste water per 1 litre of RO. If I filter 30 litres for a brew day this wastes up to 120 litres, about a bath full. One brew day a month isn’t wasting a huge amount, but I agree it is something worth looking at to reuse.

You could possibly water plants with it. The waste water is going to have more impurities in it than tap water though, give it a try perhaps, but keep an eye on if your plants care for it. You could certainly use it for washing and cleaning though.

 

[foxbat]

I haven’t measured it myself, but I read it could be 3-4 litres waste water per 1 litre of RO. If I filter 30 litres for a brew day this wastes up to 120 litres, about a bath full. One brew day a month isn’t wasting a huge amount, but I agree it is something worth looking at to reuse.

You could possibly water plants with it. The waste water is going to have more impurities in it than tap water though, give it a try perhaps, but keep an eye on if your plants care for it. You could certainly use it for washing and cleaning though.

Thanks, that's good to know.

 

[foxbat]

I spent a bit of time messing with gypsum quantities. I'd say you are right; unlike many water additions lots of gypsum (300ppm+ sulphate) really does effect the flavour. Changing malt flavours to something I could recognise as Marsden's Pedigree in my Pedigree clone attempts. But after a short while (3-4 weeks I found) it would start displaying it's "documented" qualities like "dryness" - I described it as like sticking your tongue on a well used blackboard. Quite inappropriate for a relatively low ABV beer (<4.5%), perhaps needs stronger beers (I'll use 300ppm+ in my "Burton Ales" but do not recognise anything obvious from the gypsum).

The sulphurous notes ("snatch") passed me by, but I understand there are a combination of circumstances to bring this out (can't say I've ever noticed it in "real" Pedigree either).

Did you progress any further with your burtonisation experiments? The reason I ask is that I'm considering trying the Murphys profile for bitters in my next Yorkshire bitter and it calls for 400ppm sulphate. (Ca:170, Mg:15, Cl:200, SO4: 400). This is the sort of water profile that would send our American friends running for the hills but I'm minded to trust Murphys on matters of UK beers.

 

[The-Engineer-That-Brews]

Did you progress any further with your burtonisation experiments? The reason I ask is that I'm considering trying the Murphys profile for bitters in my next Yorkshire bitter and it calls for 400ppm sulphate. (Ca:170, Mg:15, Cl:200, SO4: 400). This is the sort of water profile that would send our American friends running for the hills but I'm minded to trust Murphys on matters of UK beers.

FWIW I recently used Murphy's bitter profile for both my 'Yorkshire' and 'London bitters (in fact I had to take the Calcium a bit higher, see below).
The beers tasted good to me and went down well with the lads. For ref, I hate the slightest hint of 'sulphur' (e.g. Marston's Pedigree).

I used 50% RO with my very hard tapwater which is probably not too different from yours; then added salts as follows:

For reference my tap water is Ca 145, Mg 0, Na 30, Bicarb 333, Sulphate 42, Chloride 55, Nitrate 31.

 

[peebee]

Did you progress any further with your burtonisation experiments? The reason I ask is that I'm considering trying the Murphys profile for bitters in my next Yorkshire bitter and it calls for 400ppm sulphate. (Ca:170, Mg:15, Cl:200, SO4: 400). This is the sort of water profile that would send our American friends running for the hills but I'm minded to trust Murphys on matters of UK beers.

Blimey, you've had to dig deep in the "archives" to pull this one out!

Not really. The dry sensation established itself too quickly for me to get through the entire batch (the sensation appeared after 3-4 weeks, but the beer was only brewed a week earlier). The initial enhancements were very welcome, but I felt the dry sensation would need a much heavier beer to go with.

Pale beers I do now are generally down to 2-300ppm sulphate.

Ironically I now commonly brew those heavy beers (1.055-65 rather than 1.040-45), the ones I thought would be more suitable, but not "Burton" examples just yet. I'm planning some historical "Burton Ales" (hopped Ales, not IPAs, those beers came later). I may revisit high gypsum content water then, but that's way down the line.

I tend to use Graham Wheelers concoctions for water (his "Burton" profile only goes for 367ppm sulphate BTW - I've not tried that recently). I used to have a battle dissolving that much gypsum, but since I've changed to a newer more finely divided sample dissolving it is a whole lot easier. I think my original sample came out of a bag of builder's plaster!

 

[foxbat]

FWIW I recently used Murphy's bitter profile for both my 'Yorkshire' and 'London bitters (in fact I had to take the Calcium a bit higher, see below).
The beers tasted good to me and went down well with the lads. For ref, I hate the slightest hint of 'sulphur' (e.g. Marston's Pedigree).

I used 50% RO with my very hard tapwater which is probably not too different from yours; then added salts as follows:

View attachment 55667
For reference my tap water is Ca 145, Mg 0, Na 30, Bicarb 333, Sulphate 42, Chloride 55, Nitrate 31.

That's good to know. Your tap water cut with 50% RO roughly matches the bottled water that I would use for a high mineral profile and your Gypsum addition would be about the same too. If the beer tasted good and was a bit sulphurous too then so much the better for my taste.

Blimey, you've had to dig deep in the "archives" to pull this one out!

Not really. The dry sensation established itself too quickly for me to get through the entire batch (the sensation appeared after 3-4 weeks, but the beer was only brewed a week earlier). The initial enhancements were very welcome, but I felt the dry sensation would need a much heavier beer to go with.

Pale beers I do now are generally down to 2-300ppm sulphate.

Ironically I now commonly brew those heavy beers (1.055-65 rather than 1.040-45), the ones I thought would be more suitable, but not "Burton" examples just yet. I'm planning some historical "Burton Ales" (hopped Ales, not IPAs, those beers came later). I may revisit high gypsum content water then, but that's way down the line.

I tend to use Graham Wheelers concoctions for water (his "Burton" profile only goes for 367ppm sulphate BTW - I've not tried that recently). I used to have a battle dissolving that much gypsum, but since I've changed to a newer more finely divided sample dissolving it is a whole lot easier. I think my original sample came out of a bag of builder's plaster!

Thanks for the update. I'd wondered how far you'd gone with this and was surprised that you had difficulty dissolving it at the time as I can get it to dissolve with a stick blender at about 1/4 teaspoon in 500ml of cold water.