Guinness West Indies Porter Clone

[jayk34]

I was just converting the recipe for West Indies Porter from a website that @MmmBeer had posted yesterday and was looking for opinions on the duration of both the boil and mash stated in the recipe. It gives the boil time 85 minutes and mash of 90 minutes. Any opinions on the benefit of the stated timings compared to the standard 60 minute mash and 60 minute boil ?


Recipe in brewfather.

 

[samale]

Let me know how this goes. I would be prone to a few west Indies porter

 

[jayk34]

Let me know how this goes. I would be prone to a few west Indies porter

Will do

 

[An Ankoù]

I was just converting the recipe for West Indies Porter from a website that @MmmBeer had posted yesterday and was looking for opinions on the duration of both the boil and mash stated in the recipe. It gives the boil time 85 minutes and mash of 90 minutes. Any opinions on the benefit of the stated timings compared to the standard 60 minute mash and 60 minute boil ?


Recipe in brewfather.

Back in the day, a 90 minute mash and a 90 minute boil were considered standard. Maybe they haven't caught up in New Zealand.
Just had a look at the recipe and the first charge of hops gets added a -75 minutes so what are the other 10 minutes for?
A standard 90 minute boil was a standard to get the best bittering out of the hops for energy invested. If we're to stick to that then I suppose we should chuck the copper hops in at -90, too.
Just having a good look at this resipe. It looks like a goer, but there's at least one error in it.

 

[An Ankoù]

Here's my take on the recipe conversion. Two points: Gladfield's Sour Grapes Malt is just acidulated malt. It's not 736 SRM, this is a mistake. It's about 3.5 ebc. Don't omit this. It's important to the overall flavour of the beer. Normally it would be used for correcting the pH of the mash, but there's no need to because of the 4 dark malts. It is, however, necessary for the flavour- I always use it in my Guinness clones. Second point is that the NZ brewers have adapted the recipe to their own ingredients, matching them as closely as possibe, and it's not always clear what they've substituted from, fore example, I can't find a crystal malt of 96.4 srm (190 ebc) so it's a toss up between a crystal around 155 ebc or one around 220 ebc. I've converts srm to ebc below.
Recipe for 20 litres, abv 6.0% : 36 ibus : OG 1063 ; FG 1018 (that seems a bit high to me!)

3Kg Crisps Best Ale Malt 5.5 ebc
1.3 Kg Flaked Barley
700 g Munich Malt around 15 ebc. (I would be using Crisp's which is a tad higher)
336 g Crystal Malt 190 ebc (I'd choose Crisp's 155 ebc rather than the dark at 220 ebc but suit yourself. I might change my mind when I do it)
224 g Roast Barley 1450 ebc (Mine's 1300 ebc)
112g Acidulated Malt 3.5 ebc. (Most of these are German, Wyermann is typical)
NB. Crisp's crystal malt descriptions are a nightmare: they call "light" what everyone else calls "medium" and "medium" what everyone else calls "dark". Go by the ebc.
Hops:
52g Fuggles pellets @ 4.5% alpha acid for 90 minutes to give 26 ibus
32g EKG pellets @ 5.5% alpha acid for 30 minutes to give 10 ibus
Irish moss or Protofloc last 10 minutes.

Irish Ale yeast.
Check for glaring errors as I've got a thick head this morning due to curry poisoning even though I tried to wash it all through with beer.

 

[jayk34]

Here's my take on the recipe conversion. Two points: Gladfield's Sour Grapes Malt is just acidulated malt. It's not 736 SRM, this is a mistake. It's about 3.5 ebc. Don't omit this. It's important to the overall flavour of the beer. Normally it would be used for correcting the pH of the mash, but there's no need to because of the 4 dark malts. It is, however, necessary for the flavour- I always use it in my Guinness clones. Second point is that the NZ brewers have adapted the recipe to their own ingredients, matching them as closely as possibe, and it's not always clear what they've substituted from, fore example, I can't find a crystal malt of 96.4 srm (190 ebc) so it's a toss up between a crystal around 155 ebc or one around 220 ebc.

Yes, I had included it in the recipe with weyermans acidulated malt at 2.5 -12 EBC. I had worked on the assumption that it was a typo and thought they may have missed decimal point i.e. 7.36 SRM which works have made it around 25 EBC instead of 736 as I couldn't find any acidulated malt with that high ebc.

Had that issue as well with the crystal. The dark and medium has too high an EBC and the light crystal too low. Might go for the medium.

 

[An Ankoù]

Yes, I had included it in the recipe with weyermans acidulated malt at 2.5 -12 EBC. I had worked on the assumption that it was a typo and thought they may have missed decimal point i.e. 7.36 SRM which works have made it around 25 EBC instead of 736 as I couldn't find any acidulated malt with that high ebc.

Had that issue as well with the crystal. The dark and medium has too high an EBC and the light crystal too low. Might go for the medium.

Yeah, I'm torn over the crystal. There isn't all that much roasted barley so I might go that way, too.

 

[jayk34]

@An Ankoù so you think 60 minute mash and boil would do for this ?

 

[foxy]

I don't know how close the porter is to the Guinness some one did say in one post there was barely a difference. If that is the case you could try this, I haven't tried it yet but will on my next Guinness clone. Its just to get the sour taste in there.
Wang, Dang, Sweet Guinness Tang
To get that “Guinness tang,” try this. After pitching the yeast to your stout, siphon 19 oz. of pitched wort to a sanitized 22 oz. bottle. Pitch bottle with a small amount of Brettanomyces and Lactobacillus. Cover bottle with aluminum foil and let ferment. When beer in bottle is done fermenting, pour it in a saucepan and heat to 160 °F (71 °C) for 15 minutes. Cool the beer and pour and pour it back in the bottle. Cap bottle and refrigerate. Add to stout when bottling or kegging.

 

[An Ankoù]

@An Ankoù so you think 60 minute mash and boil would do for this ?

I've never mashed for as little a 60 minutes, it's always 90 or more for me. I based my copper hop addition on a 90 minute boil. 60 mins would be fine with 3-4% more fuggles. Not much difference really.

 

[jayk34]

I don't know how close the porter is to the Guinness some one did say in one post there was barely a difference. If that is the case you could try this, I haven't tried it yet but will on my next Guinness clone. Its just to get the sour taste in there.
Wang, Dang, Sweet Guinness Tang
To get that “Guinness tang,” try this. After pitching the yeast to your stout, siphon 19 oz. of pitched wort to a sanitized 22 oz. bottle. Pitch bottle with a small amount of Brettanomyces and Lactobacillus. Cover bottle with aluminum foil and let ferment. When beer in bottle is done fermenting, pour it in a saucepan and heat to 160 °F (71 °C) for 15 minutes. Cool the beer and pour and pour it back in the bottle. Cap bottle and refrigerate. Add to stout when bottling or kegging.

Are you talking about the commercial draught Guinness or foreign export? If it's the latter, they are very similar but the draught and West Indies porter are very different.

 

[foxy]

Are you talking about the commercial draught Guinness or foreign export? If it's the latter, they are very similar but the draught and West Indies porter are very different.

That is the draught.

 

[jayk34]

Here's my take on the recipe conversion. Two points: Gladfield's Sour Grapes Malt is just acidulated malt. It's not 736 SRM, this is a mistake. It's about 3.5 ebc. Don't omit this. It's important to the overall flavour of the beer. Normally it would be used for correcting the pH of the mash, but there's no need to because of the 4 dark malts. It is, however, necessary for the flavour- I always use it in my Guinness clones. Second point is that the NZ brewers have adapted the recipe to their own ingredients, matching them as closely as possibe, and it's not always clear what they've substituted from, fore example, I can't find a crystal malt of 96.4 srm (190 ebc) so it's a toss up between a crystal around 155 ebc or one around 220 ebc. I've converts srm to ebc below.
Recipe for 20 litres, abv 6.0% : 36 ibus : OG 1063 ; FG 1018 (that seems a bit high to me!)

3Kg Crisps Best Ale Malt 5.5 ebc
1.3 Kg Flaked Barley
700 g Munich Malt around 15 ebc. (I would be using Crisp's which is a tad higher)
336 g Crystal Malt 190 ebc (I'd choose Crisp's 155 ebc rather than the dark at 220 ebc but suit yourself. I might change my mind when I do it)
224 g Roast Barley 1450 ebc (Mine's 1300 ebc)
112g Acidulated Malt 3.5 ebc. (Most of these are German, Wyermann is typical)
NB. Crisp's crystal malt descriptions are a nightmare: they call "light" what everyone else calls "medium" and "medium" what everyone else calls "dark". Go by the ebc.
Hops:
52g Fuggles pellets @ 4.5% alpha acid for 90 minutes to give 26 ibus
32g EKG pellets @ 5.5% alpha acid for 30 minutes to give 10 ibus
Irish moss or Protofloc last 10 minutes.

Irish Ale yeast.
Check for glaring errors as I've got a thick head this morning due to curry poisoning even though I tried to wash it all through with beer.

That's the pretty much the recipe I have but I modified the hops based on the aa% between the new Zealand and UK varieties. I didn't take into account the shortened boil time do thanks for the nudge in that direction. Will have to recalculate again.

 

[jayk34]

That is the draught.

Thanks. In that case I will skip that step at the minute for this recipe.

 

[samale]

I would happily nominated myself to taste any attempts at a clone.

 

[jayk34]

I would happily nominated myself to taste any attempts at a clone.

I intend to do it next after I the fermentation fridge is freed up. I will certainly send one on to you once it's bottled.

 

[An Ankoù]

I'm glad this thread has been triggered as I couldn't find it. It's time to do a side-by-side with a bottle of the real 6% stuff. I tried a bottle of mine about three weeks ago, maybe four, and it was very nice indeed, but it didn't taste the way I remembered the genuine WIP to taste- more like a Guinness Original (I think that's what they call the 5% brew).
Regardless of how it compares, it's a lovely drink and I'll certainly brew it again. A bit late now as I had a heavy session last night, but certainly a job for the weekend.
Will report findings.

 

[jayk34]

It is good and as you say not a clone. What I can only describe in my limited beer vocabulary is that the harsh acid twang has diminished over time. I had two tonight and they were quite nice. Tlhe body is not as much as the original, but I'm suspecting that was due to your thoughts about flaked barley percentage. Wonder if adding rice/,oak hulls might help instead of stepped mash ?

 

[An Ankoù]

It is good and as you say not a clone. What I can only describe in my limited beer vocabulary is that the harsh acid twang has diminished over time. I had two tonight and they were quite nice. Tlhe body is not as much as the original, but I'm suspecting that was due to your thoughts about flaked barley percentage. Wonder if adding rice/,oak hulls might help instead of stepped mash ?

I don't know about the hulls, it should help runoff and I can't think of any mashes in recent years where I've had a 20% shortfall on OG. I'm going to go back to the recipe and give it a good rethinking. But first I'm running out of heffeweisen and I haven't really got stick into my first batch of WIP yet.

 

[An Ankoù]

Side by side tasting with a bottle of the real stuff reveals that the recipe is miles off the mark. To start with, the original is considerably darker and this comes across in the taste, which is more roast and with a sharper acidity. By comparison, the original has almost, but not quite, a touch of smoke. In my version, the bubbles are much finer and the head lasts longer. The beer has a "rounder" flavour and lacks the little bit if "kick" that comes from the original. In retrospect, the taste of my vintage Whitbread Porter was closer to the original than this.
In short, the NZ recipe produces a lovely porter, which will continue to benefit from being kept and is well worth brewing for its own sake, but it will never taste anything like Guinness West Indies Porter. It's back to the drawing board with this one, I'm afraid.