Electric cars.

[JockyBrewer]

The datum of a cars value and level of wear and tear with ICE cars was always mileage...higher mileage cars were worth less and assumed to be less reliable and more likely to cause additional running costs, but for BEV's maybe mileage is a metric that has zero relevance or utility in assessing how good a car is and we need to look at something like charge cycles, or some ratio of slow charge cycles to fast charge cycles or something else to really understand the overall condition of a BEV.

This is a really good point.

ICE cars have lots of moving parts, so mileage matters. For a BEVs the relationship doesn't disappear as more mileage means more charge cycles which we know 'wears' the battery, but there's also other factors about age, temperature, speed of charge, and how long a car stays at very high or very low charge.

I fully expect a standard for battery 'State of Health' to be established at some point, with that being one of the metrics provided alongside mileage when selling a car.

It's like a lot of other things in this area where new ways of doing things will be found.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

Looking at my local Shell station they have plenty of room and could fit 3-4 times as many chargers as they have pumps right now.

Surely a lot of that space will be taken by the new facilities needed to keep the EV owners occupied while they wait for their cars to be charged.

For example Shell's first location for this was in Fulham, West London. It has about 12x 175kW chargers, so if you have a car that can charge at higher rates you're going to be done in 15-20 minutes max.
And we already have more public chargers than petrol pumps,<SNIP>

People don't want to use public chargers they want to use cheap lecky at home public chargers are a last resort when there is no other option, people that cannot charge at home may as well stick to their ICE cars.

 

[Nicks90]

Well that is one car and despite that Tesla for sure warn against constant fast charging and people I know with non teslas are seeing massive battery degradation in cars that are only a year or two old. Some brands are worse than others, but in some cases they're seeing as much as 10% battery degradation in one year from new - now of course ICE cars see degradation in efficiency over use and wear and tear but not as much as 10% year on year..maybe 10% over 100k miles - I ran a 20 year old Porsche some time ago and after a good compression test and leak down test at just over 100k miles the results were that the engine had only just been broken in so as far as the engine was concerned just beginning its really useful service life. And keeping tabs on some of the YouTubers who buy old high mileage cars and seeing how much they cost to run, whenever they buy a high mileage Tesla in almost all cases the battery is knackered and often either requires changing at around £15k cost (which might still be worth it depending on how much you bought the car for in the first place) or just putting up with really crap battery performance.

The datum of a cars value and level of wear and tear with ICE cars was always mileage...higher mileage cars were worth less and assumed to be less reliable and more likely to cause additional running costs, but for BEV's maybe mileage is a metric that has zero relevance or utility in assessing how good a car is and we need to look at something like charge cycles, or some ratio of slow charge cycles to fast charge cycles or something else to really understand the overall condition of a BEV.

Yes but no but yes
It's complicated
All new battery packs suffer excess degradation in the first year, but then it tails off significantly for the rest of its life. And secondly it's the battery management system and software the ultimately dictates battery longevity when cycling through many hundreds of charge cycles at varying powera. This is possibly why teslas see less issue than other brands, as they are a technology company that happens to build cars, and not a car company that develops tech. And one thing they have nailed is managing battery charging, levelling charge rate across the cells and managing thermal load.
Their BMS system has already been licensed to other manufacturers - biggest being BYD in exchange for their blade battery IP for use in new Tesla's - and is a serious revenue earner.

This is why your phone is shagged out after 2 years, it has almost no BMS to speak of as battery longevity is not in the manufacturer best interest. But it is for a car - just how successfully someone like Merc or VAG can do it is often called in to question

 

[Alastair70]

This is a really good point.

ICE cars have lots of moving parts, so mileage matters. For a BEVs the relationship doesn't disappear as more mileage means more charge cycles which we know 'wears' the battery, but there's also other factors about age, temperature, speed of charge, and how long a car stays at very high or very low charge.

I fully expect a standard for battery 'State of Health' to be established at some point, with that being one of the metrics provided alongside mileage when selling a car.

It's like a lot of other things in this area where new ways of doing things will be found.

I’m about to get a first hand experience of this.
Unfortunately, I have to change the Model 3 to something my wife can get in and out of. I can’t remember the purchase price in late 2019, somewhere sound the 52k mark, It’s done just south of 110k miles but is pretty good nick.
I’m expecting somewhere between 20 and 25 grand on the trade in, but we’ll see.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

People don't want to use public chargers they want to use cheap lecky at home

And we all want to drive a Ferrari and cuddle up to Margot Robbie at night.

public chargers are a last resort when there is no other option, people that cannot charge at home may as well stick to their ICE cars.

Look at it the other way, the fact that the current state of the art is adding 300 miles in 10.5 minutes and a cost about the same as petrol (and both aspects will only get better) means that people with ICE cars can no longer use charging as a reason not to switch, even if they don't have offroad parking. And electric cars have other advantages - fewer moving parts to go wrong, less contribution to the fine particles (PM2.5) in polluted air that kill 7 million people every year, decreasing dependency on imported fossil fuels from dodgy regimes and so on.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

People don't want to use public chargers they want to use cheap lecky at home

And we all want to drive a Ferrari and cuddle up to Margot Robbie at night.

WTF has that got to do with the discussion, the bottom line is -

As the pic in the post below shows 48% of us are happy to drive cars older than 7 years old (to over 12)

The majority of ICE car owners do not plan to buy a BEV any time soon due to initial price, the expense of using and lack of public charging. (and the aforementioned 30% with no off street parking)

The ones that do plan to buy a new car can buy a new clean diesel no power socket to install and no worries if they have no off street parking and range is no issue.

People are still very wary of buying used BEV due misinformation (as discussed here) that is not going to change any time soon.

Its going to be very long time before the majority of ICE car drivers can be persuaded to make the switch.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

Electric vehicle (EV) sales in the UK are growing, but the market is not expected to grow quickly enough to meet the government's targets:

• Sales
  In 2024, 338,314 new fully electric cars have been sold, which is 18.7% of all new cars registered. This is more than the total number of electric cars sold in 2023.
  
  
• Market share
  The proportion of new cars that are electric has grown from 6.6% in 2020 to 18.7% in 2024. However, the SMMT says that market growth is lower when looking at the entire year.
  
  
• Government mandate
  The UK government's zero-emission vehicle (ZEV) mandate requires manufacturers to gradually decrease the percentage of vehicle sales that use internal combustion engines until they are phased out in 2035.
  
  
• • Industry response
    The industry is lobbying for the UK government to relax the mandate or fund incentives for electric car purchases. Carmakers say they are being forced into discounts that are financially unsustainable.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

Why EV uptake in UK is stalling and the government must abandon its ZEV mandate​

In the video the guy says when you use public chargers you are getting the equivalent of 20 mpg compared to ICE.

 

[JockyBrewer]

Did the long Christmas drive today.

First of all, welcome to the future: a stop outside the NEC off the M42. A charging hub with 30 rapid chargers between 160 and 300kWh.

Also the dog got a big welcome at the attached Starbucks with a puppacino.

After a coffee and a toilet trip we were on our way in 20 minutes with an extra 120 miles of range in the battery.

An hour or so up the road Mrs Jocky wanted a McDonald’s so we stopped at Sandbach services off the M6.

I had no need to charge, but thought I’d take a look anyway... A busy services, only three chargers, and all out of order.

While we had our food over 10 minutes at least 10 cars came in looking to charge. Crap. Although one guy I spoke with said that a similar set up to the NEC hub was being installed nearby.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

While we had our food over 10 minutes at least 10 cars came in looking to charge. Crap. Although one guy I spoke with said that a similar set up to the NEC hub was being installed nearby.

The nice new 30 charger hub and coffee shop is obviously the way forward but until they get rid of the uncertainty and worry that your well planned journey isn't going to go tits up due to out of order chargers or queues ICE drivers are not going to move to BEV.

 

[xozzx]

The 30 car charging hub looks smart, but also kinda deserted... Ive seen a few similar (a little smaller) and they are always empty, probably because they charge upwards of 75p/kWh making charging 10 times more expensive than home and also much more expensive than diesel or petrol.

Ive only made a couple of longer journeys in mine and hate using public chargers - one charge for 200 miles would cost the same as it would cost to home charge for 2000miles! (and I actually do mine for free at work). A price cap on public chargers may help encourage people to buy EVs, if I couldnt charge at home or work I think its very unlikely Id buy one until they sorted public charging.

 

[Alastair70]

The 30 car charging hub looks smart, but also kinda deserted...

This is an uncommon example of infrastructure exceeding demand. Overall, the charging network is stretched but still usable.

As for the cost of on road charging, the most expensive electric in Ireland works out around 20p per mile for me. 75% of my charging is at home on an overnight rate, so overall I’m quids in.

@Chippy_Tea Ive made the point here before, I was doing 600 miles a week in 2020 in Northern Ireland in an EV when there was effectively no functioning public network. Range anxiety is as irrational most other forms of anxiety.

 

[JockyBrewer]

The 30 car charging hub looks smart, but also kinda deserted... Ive seen a few similar (a little smaller) and they are always empty, probably because they charge upwards of 75p/kWh making charging 10 times more expensive than home and also much more expensive than diesel or petrol.

I think it’s only deserted because people don’t really know it’s there. It’s not mentioned on the motorway signage at all.

By my count plenty more people would have paid even more at the services if the charge points were working.

 

[JockyBrewer]

This is an uncommon example of infrastructure exceeding demand. Overall, the charging network is stretched but still usable.

Also I like the fact that half of this thread is people saying that there’s not enough charging infrastructure, and then when I post an example of an amazing piece of infrastructure there’s complaints it’s not being used enough.

To be fair, the roads were very quiet yesterday. I haven’t had as clear a run on the M25 during daylight for 10 years.

 

[xozzx]

Also I like the fact that half of this thread is people saying that there’s not enough charging infrastructure, and then when I post an example of an amazing piece of infrastructure there’s complaints it’s not being used enough.

I guess it varies across the country. Im East coast of Scotland and would say there is adequate charge points but most are almost never used. One of the apps I use has a "last used xx hr/days ago" and often it is "last used over a month ago". Not sure how accurate this is but it wouldnt surprise me. The town I live has 3 public chargers which I pass fairly often and would say max 10% of the times I see them is anyone charging. I would consider using public chargers more often if they werent soo expensive.

I love my EV and doubt Ill ever go back to ICE unless I couldnt do the majority of my charging at home or work, in which case I doubt Id keep it.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

Big discussion on 5 live today about BEV, apparently I was a bit out with my stats that 30 percent of UK houses do not have off street parking that figure doesn't include highrises etc the actual figure that can charge at home is 57 percent so 43 percent cannot take advantage of cheap electricity.

An EV owner also said the government get 20 percent from public chargers which people who charge at home do not pay, I didn't catch what this figure is but assume it's VAT

Another owner said they need to do away with apps a lot of older drivers hate them they often don't work.

Another said they need to show the price at the charging station like they do at a petrol station so you can drive past if the price is too high

 

[Nicks90]

Big discussion on 5 live today about BEV, apparently I was a bit out with my stats that 30 percent of UK houses do not have off street parking that figure doesn't include highrises etc the actual figure that can charge at home is 57 percent so 43 percent cannot take advantage of cheap electricity.

An EV owner also said the government get 20 percent from public chargers which people who charge at home do not pay, I didn't catch what this figure is but assume it's VAT

Another owner said they need to do away with apps a lot of older drivers hate them they often don't work.

Another said they need to show the price at the charging station like they do at a petrol station so you can drive past if the price is too high

Completely agree, every charge station should have signage showing what the price is, and it should change as off-peak prices kick in etc
And every charge station should just have a contactless payment pad in the same way as a petrol pump. Tap to pre-auth up to £99 and plug in, take your charge and go.
Only time this should not be the case - or in addition to - is when you have an account or a discount card to give you a cheaper or fixed rate, in which case carry on as you do now.

 

[Polcho]

Public chargers or not, I still maintain that charging over 40 million cars is a lot of electric, and we don't really have a prayer of charging that lot and keeping the lights on.

By the time they build enough nuclear power plants, install enough photovoltaic panels and put up enough windmills to cope with all the demand for electricity from cars and wifi toasters, we will all be back on push bikes.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

Public chargers or not, I still maintain that charging over 40 million cars is a lot of electric, and we don't really have a prayer of charging that lot and keeping the lights on.

This always comes up in BEV discussion and i have posted this in the thread more than once -

 

[Polcho]

I know, however, we won'y know until when, when it's too late, like always.