Electric cars.

[old dog new tricks]

was put off by the review of real word range 150 miles that was a bit too short for my use but everything else about it looked ok tbf

 

[Brew_DD2]

was put off by the review of real word range 150 miles that was a bit too short for my use but everything else about it looked ok tbf

I get about 190 in summer, and 130 on the coldest of Scottish winter days. I do mostly fast A-road driving and have a heavy right foot.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Been a few years since I looked at EVs

Given how quickly the technology and finances have been changing, let alone major things like the withdrawal of most subsidies because they're not really needed, have you considered that you're a bit out of date? And that maybe you might be better doing more listening than posting here?

For instance, we went through real-world numbers back in April here, which came back with a break even of a bit over 6000 miles per year (and which led ODNT, previously an EV sceptic, to end up putting hard cash down on one as the numbers worked for him) :
https://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/threads/electric-cars.100585/page-84#post-1271777

Yes, they will always work better for people doing big mileages or who can take advantage of the one remaining major subsidy which is for company cars. But I've mentioned before I know someone who was in the sweet spot of doing 100 miles pretty much every day and they ended up leasing a Leaf for less than their monthly petrol costs.

at the time equivalent petrol Vs EV had at least £10k price difference and that was even after the grant(is that still a thing?)

No it's not been a thing for over 2 years. And for instance, Vauxhall are selling the petrol and electric versions of the new Frontera at the same price (£23.5k) : https://www.topgear.com/car-news/el...halls-new-frontera-cost-same-starting-ps23495

i suspect if you had to pay for fast charging on a regular basis you wouldn't be breaking even for way long if at all?

But 80% of charging is done at home - and I know several people who have never charged at a public charger. But even public charging is generally cheaper than buying petrol, and now that the upfront premium of electric is disappearing - a Frontera owner would be quids in regardless. As one example, Nicks90 went on a 1050-mile road trip to Europe using Tesla superchargers exclusively and it cost him less than £75, he reckons a petrol car would have to do 94mpg to be cheaper.

There must be something going on with EVs as a quick look on Autorader has 90%? Heavily discounted £30k+ cars down to mid 20's etc etc

The second-hand car market has generally been a mess since Covid, and with EVs you have two specific effects with rapidly advancing technology - the value of 150-mile-range cars will crater in a world of 250-mile-range cars - and Tesla in particular having to crash their new prices as they have moved from a near monopoly on decent EVs to facing a lot of competition. But that seems to have sorted itself out this year, and ODNT reported that decent second-hand EVs weren't staying long on the forecourt when he tried to buy one. Also I see this from Fleet News, who probably have a better overview of the market than individual anecdote :

Dealer demand for used BEVs ‘stronger than petrol’​

 

[hoppyscotty]

Well the 'market' (it's not actually a market in the basic definition of the word) is very skewed so hard to judge where the actual demand is. About 7.5 million used cars are bought every year vs. just under 2 million new cars with a good chunk in the EV sales has been driven by company cars so not exactly free choice representing peoples genuine desire...and when it comes to cars alot of people don't buy 'the cheapest' car to buy or run...they're products of desire and people are happy to pay a pretty premium to get the car they want rather the cheapest car to buy or run. So yes EV sales are on the rise, and no doubt the sale of used EV's will rise because if you dump millions of cars on the used market they will find a price that people will buy them at and they will sell, but don't confuse that with that being a consumer demand driven rise...its mostly because the market is rigged in favour of EV's - there will be a price that you can buy the market at and peoples concerns about used EV's are basically bought at a price point.

And shock horror, a magazine that lobby's for fleet owners who have thousands of used cars they are always looking to sell on, comes out and says demand in used EV's is growing is hardly surprising...call be a big cynic, but I'm not sure how unbiased they are...plenty of other sources that claim the opposite is true and there basically is no market for used EV's, but of course there are always biases in everything you read, no media outlet is free from political or commercial biases.

Going back to diesel introduction people jumped into diesel because the product was genuinely better for consumers despite the terrible reputation diesels had initially. The new technology was compelling and the products spoke for themselves. The scrappage scheme was basically peanuts and not a real clincher against a £25-£40+k car and ultimately a political gimmick. The cost of ownership, the way they drive etc. won people over...if a better product becomes available consumers will always flock to them, but we are being coerced into EV's.

Time will tell if people will come round to EV's over ICE, but I've been running my Tesla for nearly 2 years now, and I like it alot, but I've already decided what my next car will be and it's not an EV and I'll stomach the higher cost of ownership (but lower purchase cost) because its something I want. But if I were a high milage driver then I'd probably stick with EV, the economics are so stacked against ICE due to incentives, political rules, subsidies etc. ICE stands no chance on a cost of ownership basis.

EV's are here to stay that is for sure. And one other angle is that people like their big SUV's and big heavy SUV's are unaffordable to run with diesel and petrol engines, and the lower running costs of EV and hybrids drivetrains have meant people can have their Chelsea tractors and actually afford to run them and the yummy mummy set are not going to give up their Chelsea tractors any time soon. Their street cred is on the line.

But the party will be over soon enough as the tax revenues from diesel and petrol sales start to drop off the politicians will step in and start recovering those revenues from EV and hybrid drivers, in fact its already started, so enjoy the party while it lasts. HMRC demands their take, and then some. Drivers and car owners full stop are cash cows and we'll be squeezed for every penny irrespective of what car you drive you can be sure of that. Cars gives us freedom and independence which we value above all else, and the politicians know that and are happy to exploit that.

 

[old dog new tricks]

Yes I switched when I ran to numbers.
3 and 4 year old EVs are selling strongly in my area at least if they are the right car ie over 200 mile range the demand for shorter range is far less.
Sadly I am not seeing the benefits of cheap charging at home as EDF have me tied in until October and will not let me go without large exit fees. So paying 25.4p instead of 7p
Hopefully then I will see the benefits

 

[Benfleet Brewery]

Yes I switched when I ran to numbers.
3 and 4 year old EVs are selling strongly in my area at least if they are the right car ie over 200 mile range the demand for shorter range is far less.
Sadly I am not seeing the benefits of cheap charging at home as EDF have me tied in until October and will not let me go without large exit fees. So paying 25.4p instead of 7p
Hopefully then I will see the benefits

Yes, You will defo see the benefits from October.
Have a look at OVO when you do change. Despite what a lot of people think, Octopus aren’t the only company that provides EV tariffs.

 

[old dog new tricks]

Yes, You will defo see the benefits from October.
Have a look at OVO when you do change. Despite what a lot of people think, Octopus aren’t the only company that provides EV tariffs.

yes i made sure my charger was both Octopus and OVO compatible fro this reason.

 

[Stu]

Just to show you what's changing in the market....
It wasn't so long ago that you couldn't buy anything realistic under £30k.

Now, you can get a brand new MG5 estate that can do 250 odd miles on a charge for under £20k.
https://www.baylis.uk.com/mg/offers/pre-reg-delivery-mileage-offers/

Now, I know many people don't buy brand new cars, so don't know what that sits against, but to put into perspective, the cheapest Ford Focus is £27k. There are very few family cars under £20k. Probably less than 5.

 

[old dog new tricks]

I looked at a 2022 MG5 I drove ok but felt really flimsy little things like that door cards flexed and rattled when shutting the door has only done 22k but looked very worn the Kona at same price was much nicer i thought.
But very good point the prices are being pushed down I hope when I come to replace mine in just under 4 years I can leap to the next generation with faster charging etc

 

[JockyBrewer]

I see Volvo have said that they won't be selling only electric cars by 2030:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c3ejye39434o

 

[old dog new tricks]

I see Volvo have said that they won't be selling only electric cars by 2030:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c3ejye39434o

well governments are rolling back any incentives for EVs and its hurting the market look at VW looking to half production staff in Germany citing the U-Turn in policy ie removal of incentives makes it unprofitable to stay in Germany.

Even in this country i will be paying the full £190 despite being fully electric, zero help to buy used, zero help to put in a home charger. This coupled with ridiculous price public chargers and in my part of the UK at least much colder temperatures really has an effect on range and turning on the heater is scary, almost as bad as the AC.

I am committed to this ev for 4 years but not sure if i will stay EV given the current shift to pay per mile I will probably be taxed out the game completely and forced onto my bike until they come for that as well

 

[old dog new tricks]

I see the new Kia EV9 has moved the game on with a switchable motor that has extra winding's to enable a high torque characteristic motor (Wye) for acceleration and a free spinning motor (Delta) for higher speeds, all done without any additional gearboxes or weight.

This has the potential to greater increase efficiency at motorway speeds were current EVs suffer vastly reduced efficiency.

Some have stated the revised EV9 will ditch the 2nd motor in favour of this much cheaper and lighter system

Heavy industry has employed this for decades with larger motors going from Star (Wye) to Delta., so this is not new technology but just making electric motors more efficient.




https://www.designnews.com/automoti...ve-dual-wye-and-delta-ev-motor-configurations

 

[Chippy_Tea]

The Toyota hybrid system -

 

[Rodcx500z]

I said it before and i will say it again electric is the wrong way forward, and no i have no statistics to prove it i just know, i also have a nagging feeling in my head that they ie governments VW volvo know as well, Hydrogen is the way or electric hybrid, take a cateraman they have twin engines with high output alternaters that supply enough power you don't need a generater they supply all the power you need to charge your battery bank for total off shore living.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

I said it before and i will say it again electric is the wrong way forward, and no i have no statistics to prove it i just know, i also have a nagging feeling in my head that they ie governments VW volvo know as well, Hydrogen is the way or electric hybrid, take a cateraman they have twin engines with high output alternaters that supply enough power you don't need a generater they supply all the power you need to charge your battery bank for total off shore living.

I haven't a clue if EV/Hybrid or Hydrogen will be the winner but as it says below its going to take billions of pounds to develop a full hydrogen refuelling infrastructure where the gas is produced and then transported to stations, who is going to invest when we already have EV and Hybrid cars that are now achieving huge mileages and chargers are popping up everywhere for those that don't just charge at home.

What’s the future for hydrogen cars?​

For truly sustainable mobility, hydrogen is a fuel that cannot be ignored. It is also regarded as a potential alternative for fuelling HGVs, where electric trucks are hampered by battery capacity and having to recharge using the power grid. The biggest downside, though, is that developing a full hydrogen refuelling infrastructure, where the gas is produced and then transported to stations, will take billions of pounds and a number of years to develop.


The key to encouraging hydrogen vehicles is by making them part of a wider ‘hydrogen economy’ – building refuelling stations for hydrogen cars alone would be inefficient. Instead, ideally, the whole energy sector would incorporate hydrogen into the mix, from refuelling cars to storing energy for homes. Another benefit of hydrogen is that it can potentially be produced on site rather than being transported like fuel, or supplied through the grid like electricity.
The industry is exploring ways to use existing natural gas distribution grids for easy transport of renewable hydrogen across countries and under the ocean floor. Research at Birmingham University in the UK, and elsewhere, heralds a distribution network where hydrogen can be mixed into natural gas flowing through the domestic supply grid, then separated out again where hydrogen fuel is needed – be that for industry, or transport.
The Hydrogen Council (an industry body) has predicted there could be 13 million fuel cell vehicles in operation globally as soon as 2030, including 1 million vans, trucks and buses. To many that will sound implausible, given that there are so few fuel cell cars registered globally to date. However, fuel station numbers are also expanding rapidly.

 

[old dog new tricks]

The MoD are giving hydrogen serious consideration as mobile power source the knock on effect may help the wider roll out. They are not looking at it for vehicles at present but more as an alternative to generators in the field as modem kit needs power and focussed energy weapons etc could be truly portable then.

I own an EV but unless you can charge at home on the off-peak tariff the running cost has killed the EV market. Public chargers and motorway chargers work out nearly double per mile then diesel. The madness has done real damage then the government putting full road tax and the expensive car tax premium as well have danaged the market.
Jaguar have not helped stating that their EVs should not be kept or charged indoors and should not be parked in garages overnight!

Several ferry companies and the channel tunnel are now looking at the fire risk of the current generation of EVs.

Right now it's on the bubble if they will succeed the fact that major manufacturers are returning to petrol or diesel as they can't sell full EVs is very telling. Demand for hybrids seems strong but full scale EV is slowing down.

It feels like betamax v VHS all over again.

Tell you one thing I am keeping my old motorbike it owes me nothing but with tlc it will keep going longer than me!

Will I get another EV in 36 months time? Will have to wait and see what happens right now I do not know

 

[Stu]

I own an EV but unless you can charge at home on the off-peak tariff the running cost has killed the EV market. Public chargers and motorway chargers work out nearly double per mile then diesel. The madness has done real damage then the government putting full road tax and the expensive car tax premium as well have danaged the market.
Jaguar have not helped stating that their EVs should not be kept or charged indoors and should not be parked in garages overnight!

Several ferry companies and the channel tunnel are now looking at the fire risk of the current generation of EVs.

Right now it's on the bubble if they will succeed the fact that major manufacturers are returning to petrol or diesel as they can't sell full EVs is very telling. Demand for hybrids seems strong but full scale EV is slowing down.

Generally, when I'm out and about, I use open-to-all Tesla chargers.
They're usually around 43p per kw. That's about 11p per mile. Still cheaper than most Diesels.

I'm really surprised that as an EV owner you've bought into the FUD.

Jaguar told people to keep a particular model of i-Pace away from buildings until it had been recalled. It was around 3,000 cars. It was around 0.01% of cars they'd sold.
What you've omitted to say is that a month before, Kia had told 9 MILLION people the same thing for a petrol model.

That's the kind of nonsense that kicks around on Facebook from those who have no clue.

Whilst some Greek ferries have decided (without any evidence) that they want EVs to be under 40% charged. Whereas Denmark and Norway have installed EV chargers on their ferries.

As for the Channel Tunnel, as someone who took it last month with an EV, they're amongst the cheapest charging. I've seen no evidence or news articles (even from the usual G Beebies or Waily Mail) that they are considering anything. I think that's someone putting some rubbish up on Farcebook and making 2+2=5 and it's now fact.

Finally, I'm going to really have to call you out on your last sentence.
https://www.smmt.co.uk/vehicle-data/car-registrations/

Here's some evidence. Full BEV are up 10.8%. Diesel is down 13.0%. There are nearly 3x as many BEVs sold as Diesels.
In terms of Hybrid, Plugin Hybrid and mild hybrid have sold 270,000 vehicles this year so far. BEVs alone are up to 213,000.

Petrol sales were down 10% year on year last month.

There are currently some great deals on MG, for instance. An MG5, which looks like a Passat Estate is under £20k at the moment. The entry level Passat is £38k. These deals will increase as the year goes on, because 24% of all cars must be EV by the end of the year and right now, it's only 18%.

People can pretend they'll stick with petrol, diesel or whatever, but facts are, in the next 6 years, we need to get to the point where 0% are Diesel or Petrol. Fact. You can fight it all you like, but it's fact.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

If buying MG be wary they had a bad reputation for rusting a couple of year ago that may not be the case now but needs checking.

 

[old dog new tricks]

Well regards sales that is quotes from VW and others who have had to look at restarting ICE production.

I like my little Kona but I am lucky I have a drive way to charge it on.

If they adopt the star delta system on the next generation EV with better battery technology yes I will get another. Just saying right now it's on the bubble the haters are winning.

A friend works for the biggest car dealership in my area they get enough free ads without me lol. He has seen the down turn in the used market clean low mileage stuff sells but only with good range. He reckons he sells twice as many hybrids and the used price is stronger. In his area petrol is still the biggest selling used car as long as meets Scottish lez they sell no issue.

Only saying what I see and read I have no Tesla charger in my area Tesla owners complain about it not just me!

The chargers at supermarket and garages are scandalous like wise in Scotland at least the council owned chargers are ridiculous and most are AC.

I am not having a pop at EVs but I can see why they have slowed down as they are not hot perfect solution for everyone just like diesel was not either that not slagging it just pointing out not everyone is suited to certain types of power units.

For the record just because I drive an EV does not mean I can not see both sides

 

[Stu]

For the record just because I drive an EV does not mean I can not see both sides

Although I have an EV, I'm actually a petrol head.

I spend hundreds of pounds every month on "upgrading" an MR2. I'm about £10k in so far and a long way from finishing.

I just don't believe everything I read in right wing media and Facebook.

For every negative story, there's usually little truth behind it. Occasionally, there is.

I'll leave this here before unsubscribing from the thread - it's turned into the usual FUD nonsense.

The oil companies have spent over $2bn on EV propaganda. They use AI to generate headlines.