Electric cars.

[dad_of_jon]

EVs make up something like 90% of new cars in Norway and 23% of the car stock, yet the Norwegian equivalent of the AA found that EVs were responsible for 13% of 34,000 callouts during a period of extreme cold (although age will be a factor too) and in general they make up 21% of callouts in 2024.

Independent quoting Electrek

At least the 12v battery in an EV doesn't have to cold crank an ICE engine in icy conditions so there's that. It would be good perhaps if via the appropriate circuitry the EV detected a flat 12V and used some of its main battery to recharge it. Like would Central locking be part of the 12V circuit are there any ev's that dispense with 12V systems or is it safer to have some separation? or is it just cheaper to use 12V as its been the ICE standard for eons?

 

[Northern_Brewer]

or is it just cheaper to use 12V as its been the ICE standard for eons?

You still need a low-voltage system as the main traction system of a full-fat EV runs at 400V and are moving to 800V. In effect the main battery acts as an "alternator" for the 12V battery.

But running the low-voltage system at 12V is not ideal for various reasons, and carmakers have been talking about moving to a higher voltage for years - back in the 1990s they tried to agree a 42V spec which fell through, then in 2011 the Germans agreed a 48V standard which has mostly been used for mild hybrids like the Golf hybrid. As you say, it's hard to move away from 12V when everything is designed around 12V. But the mild hybrids have at least allowed a pathway to start including 48V components, and eg the new Tesla pickup has 48V throughout and Musk is trying to encourage others to move to 48V to reduce the cost to him of leading the way.

The big advantage is that you can reduce the weight of wiring by up to 85% at a higher voltage.

 

[dad_of_jon]

I learnt 2 extra things from this video. If you have an EV or EBIKE ESCOOTER hope it helps.

 

[Nicks90]

Love how he's constantly talking about l-ion batteries that contain cobalt, yet most of his imagery is of Tesla's, that use lfp batteries that are also cobalt free.
Nimrod

 

[dad_of_jon]

Hyundai Kia were according to another source not forthcoming in their battery chemistry. There was some blurb about them transitioning to a new battery chemistry implying they were using more questionable chemistry at the moment.

I've no idea what my battery chemistry is but unless I know I have lfp it makes sense to treat batteries as if the don't.

Didn't Tesla use cobalt at some point?

When I looked at a Toyota chr the 1.8 used a NiMH and the 2.0 used lithium

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Didn't Tesla use cobalt at some point?

Still do for their long-range models, but have moved their standard-range models to (cobalt-free) LFP. There was quite a fuss about it a while back, as 60% of cobalt comes from the DRC, which has some...problematic labour issues.

Something like 40% of the global market is now on LFP - generally the shorter range models.

 

[MattH1973]

Interesting couple of weeks for electric cars. The take-up rate seems to be falling behind the level that our commisars have determined we should purchase them at. The House of Lords study seems to be quite a good summary of the issues:

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld5804/ldselect/ldenvcl/51/51.pdf

A few highlights.

- It makes the critical point that public charging capacity needs to be provided at a level that *anticipates* future demand, in order to boost confidence. It's all very well saying there's enough public charging when [almost] everyone charges at home but charging capacity will have to come first to make consumers confident enough for a wider take up.

- It also begins to get to another vital point - road charging. And it encourages the govt to have an honest conversation with the public. As EV uptake increases, fuel duty collected will drop and the difference will inevitably be made up by some sort of tax on EV use. That risks making the financial appeal dramatically lower than is the case today. It is time for politicians to come clean about their plans. This is (yet) another area where the policy of all mainstream parties is equally dismal.

- And as always, some cabaret. One lobby group is blaming an article written by Rowan Atkinson for the slow take up..... "Pay no attention to the nasty man.....". Joking apart, there is an interesting issue underlying this. Normally what happens is an obviously superior product comes along and crushes the old one. This is why VHS cassettes and even now DVDs are moribund. But it doesn't seem to be the case here..... obviously a range of theories have been floated on here as to why that is. I think EVs will continue to improve and probably will become dominant - but not as fast as our beloved politicians want. I wonder how they will respond.....

 

[Northern_Brewer]

- It also begins to get to another vital point - road charging. And it encourages the govt to have an honest conversation with the public. As EV uptake increases, fuel duty collected will drop and the difference will inevitably be made up by some sort of tax on EV use. That risks making the financial appeal dramatically lower than is the case today.

Road charging will be applied to EVs and ICE equally, it won't be a differential in favour of ICE over electric....

 

[MattH1973]

Road charging will be applied to EVs and ICE equally, it won't be a differential in favour of ICE over electric....

you seem very certain !

joking apart - you may very well be right. But the devil is in the detail.
- if fuel duty remains high then ICE owners will (justifiably) say they are being double taxed. This of course would continue the "refuelling" price advantage that EV owners currently enjoy, and maintain the incentive for EV take-up. But it would likely be very unpopular electorally. There is no sign of such a policy being in the manifesto of either major party, and to introduce it without a manifesto pledge would surely cause an outcry. We have seen both major parties reverse green initiatives when they worry they are unpopular.
- road pricing could of course replace fuel duty, but then the financial incentive to drive an EV is significantly reduced.

Clobbering ICE owners with even more tax is of course an option, but a tricky one in a democracy, no matter how morally justified a minority might think it is.

I suspect this is why no politician talks about road pricing, which the Lords are right to call out !

 

[Kit-brewer]

Ideally what we need is the big petrol stations to start having EV charging points. They will benifit from trade to their sandwich bar, coffee machine, chocolate sales ect. But theu seem he'll bent on keeping EVs as unpopular as possible.

 

[hoppyscotty]

Plenty of petrol stations have EV charging points but they're horrendously expensive. EV running costs are only cheap if you can access domestic electricity rates or take advantage of cheaper off peak tariffs. Chargers out on the network re usually fast chargers which is not good to use regularly or routinely as they degrade batteries more quickly. Some EV's battery health can be degraded as much as 20% after only a few years of use if fast chargers are used routinely, and nobody is going to invest in slow chargers out on the network.

Also if you're the owner of a petrol station why would you invest in installing a couple of chargers...with the available space you have you can probably only install a couple of chargers and therefore will earn a pittance from them probably never paying back the cost of your investment. Why bother when you can just continue raking in your income from selling petrol and diesel and being a small mini-market to the local community? The economics just don't stack up. The only way the economics of EV chargers can stack up is to have lots of stalls so you can get the throughput of customers and that takes up acres of ever more expensive land and real estate. One petrol pump can service 10 or so cars per hour at the average cost of about £50 - £80 revenue per car but one charger can only service probably only one or two EV's per hour maybe raking in £20 - £50 per car. And one car park space can enable many cars per hour to park up while people pop in to the mini-market if they're not stopping for fuel, so if you lose those car park spaces to EV charing stalls then you disincentivise people from coming to your mini-market, which I suspect is now how most petrol stations make their money.

It seems obvious to say 'just put ev chargers of every street corner and that will solve the problem' but who's going to pay.

And having spent a fair few hours at EV charging stations up and down the country myself I can guarantee that most people sit in their cars while they are charging and are not spending in the shops every time - they may pop in to use the bathroom facilities thereby costing the owners more money in water, toilet paper etc. That is why some places that have EV chargers, like hotels, are now starting to charge parking fees for EV drivers to park up to use the EV chargers precisely because its costing them money.

 

[MashBag]

Rowan writes very well.

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...pter-petrol-car-ev-environment-rowan-atkinson

 

[MattH1973]

Rowan writes very well.

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...pter-petrol-car-ev-environment-rowan-atkinson

a few gems in there
1. The risk that a flawed government incentive scheme leads to a boatload of cars being purchased that are at best white elephants and at worst even more environmentally harmful than the ICE cars being phased out. For those who thing this is scaremongering, it is exactly what Gordon Brown did with diesel in the late 1990s and early millenium.
2. The opportunity to develop biofuels such that the huge stock of ICE cars can be used at very low environmental cost for years to come. Surely thats a win win.
3. Most telling, is the list of amendments now at the end of the article. They are a series of fairly minor changes on the premise that the original article was unfair to EVs. That's fair enough, media should be accurate. But I wonder if all guardian columns are similarly updated months later when they are proven wrong ? Based in a 2 min google, the link below seems to be a candidate for an update now that we know the Measles vaccine takeup is lower than ever.

https://www.theguardian.com/science...ccines-golden-era-pandemic-techology-diseases

 

[Kit-brewer]

Plenty of petrol stations have EV charging points but they're horrendously expensive. EV running costs are only cheap if you can access domestic electricity rates or take advantage of cheaper off peak tariffs. Chargers out on the network re usually fast chargers which is not good to use regularly or routinely as they degrade batteries more quickly. Some EV's battery health can be degraded as much as 20% after only a few years of use if fast chargers are used routinely, and nobody is going to invest in slow chargers out on the network.

Also if you're the owner of a petrol station why would you invest in installing a couple of chargers...with the available space you have you can probably only install a couple of chargers and therefore will earn a pittance from them probably never paying back the cost of your investment. Why bother when you can just continue raking in your income from selling petrol and diesel and being a small mini-market to the local community? The economics just don't stack up. The only way the economics of EV chargers can stack up is to have lots of stalls so you can get the throughput of customers and that takes up acres of ever more expensive land and real estate. One petrol pump can service 10 or so cars per hour at the average cost of about £50 - £80 revenue per car but one charger can only service probably only one or two EV's per hour maybe raking in £20 - £50 per car. And one car park space can enable many cars per hour to park up while people pop in to the mini-market if they're not stopping for fuel, so if you lose those car park spaces to EV charing stalls then you disincentivise people from coming to your mini-market, which I suspect is now how most petrol stations make their money.

It seems obvious to say 'just put ev chargers of every street corner and that will solve the problem' but who's going to pay.

And having spent a fair few hours at EV charging stations up and down the country myself I can guarantee that most people sit in their cars while they are charging and are not spending in the shops every time - they may pop in to use the bathroom facilities thereby costing the owners more money in water, toilet paper etc. That is why some places that have EV chargers, like hotels, are now starting to charge parking fees for EV drivers to park up to use the EV chargers precisely because its costing them money.

Yes,m so obviously good points.
Why then do petrol stations have sandwich bars, coffee machines ect? These make up a fair ching of their profits. So it would be easy to set the EV chargers needing to be authorised inside the station thus ensuring footfall and impulse purchases. So I think the fact that many of us do just sit in the car whilst charging would be an easy one to mitigate.
Charging costs are a real issues, but unless we have a network of charger people who live without off-road charging facilities at home need somewhere to charge. With more availability comes lower prices basic economics ( nothing is basic!!! But for the sake of argument this availability should reduce prices)
I agree it isn't good to constantly use fast chargers but over time thee types of chargers, with the improving technology, will not cause the same issues.
My final point is one I have made before. The petrochemical industry has pushed back against EVs for over a century. This is why the technology is still fairly young. We need them to get on board with renewables and invest in new forms of propulsion for vehicles. Whether it be electric or some other form of less polluting fuel. But the more wind, wave and solar power we can harness the less polluting EVs are.

 

[jof]

I think there is scope there for a "charge on my drive" app, so you get paid by someone else to charge their car on your drive while you are out at work.

I suspect companies already offer free charging of your company car in the works car park.
(Although I know of an environmental business that forced plug in hybrids on all company car users a few years back, but had no charging points at work & no scheme to reimburse home charging, so all the users just filled up with hydrocarbons & lost all the potential advantages)

 

[MashBag]

I do think the solution will be a mixed fleet. I also think petrochem will come up with a synthetic fuel solution.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

Why then do petrol stations have sandwich bars, coffee machines ect?

Because they make little from the fuel they sell -

How much profit do petrol stations make on fuel UK?
The profit margin to the retailer on a litre of fuel (petrol and diesel) is around 2p to 3p. After credit card transaction charges, that profit margin is eroded further. The real profit comes from the forecourt shop.

I can see petrol stations becoming as rare as hens teeth in years to come every car park where you will spend half an hour plus (supermarket etc) will be full of charging points as they are places where you can put the charging time to use and if they also discount the price of charging they will be on a winner with those not able to charge at home.

 

[Nicks90]

No they won't.
They will be converted to hydrogen fuel stations, for the luddites that think EVs are evil, but then drive an EV charged by a hydrogen fuel cell and costs 4x as much to run.... But they get to 'refuel it' like a proppa car
Never mind it will have a similar range to an EV, have bugger all space because of the huge Kevlar H2 tanks and be a bomb on wheels....oh and the fuel cell will have more precious metals in it than lfp batteries

 

[Alastair70]

Interesting infographic on where we are with hydrogen.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

They will be converted to hydrogen fuel stations,

With our small rural towns and villages having equally small petrol forecourts i think there may be trouble ahead -