Electric cars.

[JockyBrewer]

A brand new substance, which could reduce lithium use in batteries, has been discovered using artificial intelligence (AI) and supercomputing.
The findings were made by Microsoft and the Pacific Northwest National Laboratory (PNNL), which is part of the US Department of Energy.
Scientists say the material could potentially reduce lithium use by up to 70%.
Since its discovery the new material has been used to power a lightbulb.
Microsoft researchers used AI and supercomputers to narrow down 32 million potential inorganic materials to 18 promising candidates in less than a week - a screening process that could have taken more than two decades to carry out using traditional lab research methods.
The process from inception to the development of a working battery prototype took less than nine months.
The two organisations achieved this by using advanced AI and high-performance computing which combines large numbers of computers to solve complex scientific and mathematical tasks.
Executive vice president of Microsoft, Jason Zander, told the BBC one of the tech giant's missions was to "compress 250 years of scientific discovery into the next 25".
"And we think technology like this will help us do that. This is the way that this type of science I think is going to get done in the future," he said.

The problem with lithium​

Lithium is often referred to as "white gold" because of its market value and silvery colour. It is one of the key components in rechargeable batteries (lithium-ion batteries) that power everything from electric vehicles (EVs) to smartphones.
As the need for the metal ramps up and the demand for EVs rises, the world could face a shortage of the material as soon as 2025, according to the International Energy Agency.
It is also expected that demand for lithium-ion batteries will increase up to tenfold by 2030, according to the US Department for Energy, so manufacturers are constantly building battery plants to keep up.
Lithium mining can be controversial as it can take several years to develop and has a considerable impact on the environment. Extracting the metal requires large amounts of water and energy, and the process can leave huge scars in the landscape, as well as toxic waste.
Dr Nuria Tapia-Ruiz, who leads a team of battery researchers at the chemistry department at Imperial College London, said any material with reduced amounts of lithium and good energy storage capabilities are "the holy grail" in the lithium-ion battery industry.
"AI and supercomputing will become crucial tools for battery researchers in the upcoming years to help predict new high-performing materials," she said.
But Dr Edward Brightman, lecturer in chemical engineering at the University of Strathclyde, said the tech would need to be "treated with a bit of caution".
"It could throw up spurious results, or results that look good at first, and then turn out to either be a material that is known or that can't be synthesised in the lab," he said.
This AI-derived material, which at the moment is simply called N2116, is a solid-state electrolyte that has been tested by scientists who took it from a raw material to a working prototype.
It has the potential to be a sustainable energy storage solution because solid-state batteries are safer than traditional liquid or gel-like lithium.
In the near future, faster charging solid-state lithium batteries promise to be even more energy-dense, with thousands of charge cycles.

How is this AI different?​

The way in which this technology works is by using a new type of AI that Microsoft has created, trained on molecular data that can actually figure out chemistry.
"This AI is all based on scientific materials, database and properties," explained Mr Zander.
"The data is very trustworthy for using it for scientific discovery."
After the software narrowed down the 18 candidates, battery experts at PNNL then looked at them and picked the final substance to work on in the lab.
Karl Mueller from PNNL said the AI insights from Microsoft pointed them "to potentially fruitful territory so much faster" than under normal working conditions.
"[We could] modify, test and tune the chemical composition of this new material and quickly evaluate its technical viability for a working battery, showing the promise of advanced AI to accelerate the innovation cycle," he said.

BBC News

Bl**dy hell.

If that turns out to work then it changes everything, and I don’t mean the new battery material.

There are all kinds of world changing things we know are possible, but just can’t figure out the materials for (e.g. superconductors, nuclear fusion). This sort of application of AI could pull those forward by decades.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

thanks for posting - but I must confess i am a bit baffled as to why scientists felt the need to do an abstract study when Audi and Jag were doing this in real life, 2 decades ago ! At least the study agrees its a good idea !

Don't sneer, it's never a good look and never helps a discussion.

Look at the authors - they're from India. Not a country that's known for producing aluminium cars at present, and it's never a bad thing to just go back to first principles and see whether something works for you rather than just taking things as read, things like having few high-tech repair shops can have a big bearing on whether a technology is appropriate for a developing country.

Also there's huge amounts of knowledge that is held within companies but which is not open to the outside world - publishing in academic journals can "free" that knowledge, which is particularly valuable for developing countries, in some ways India's size allows it to act as the R&D hub for the whole of the developing world. Publishing also allows assumptions to be tested that may not be true or which may no longer hold in the modern world.

 

[MashBag]

A brand new substance, which could reduce lithium use in batteries, has been discovered using artificial intelligence (AI) and supercomputing.
The findings were made by Microsoft and the Pacific Northwest National Laboratory (PNNL), which is part of the US Department of Energy.
Scientists say the material could potentially reduce lithium use by up to 70%.
Since its discovery the new material has been used to power a lightbulb.
Microsoft researchers used AI and supercomputers to narrow down 32 million potential inorganic materials to 18 promising candidates in less than a week - a screening process that could have taken more than two decades to carry out using traditional lab research methods.
The process from inception to the development of a working battery prototype took less than nine months.
The two organisations achieved this by using advanced AI and high-performance computing which combines large numbers of computers to solve complex scientific and mathematical tasks.
Executive vice president of Microsoft, Jason Zander, told the BBC one of the tech giant's missions was to "compress 250 years of scientific discovery into the next 25".
"And we think technology like this will help us do that. This is the way that this type of science I think is going to get done in the future," he said.

The problem with lithium​

Lithium is often referred to as "white gold" because of its market value and silvery colour. It is one of the key components in rechargeable batteries (lithium-ion batteries) that power everything from electric vehicles (EVs) to smartphones.
As the need for the metal ramps up and the demand for EVs rises, the world could face a shortage of the material as soon as 2025, according to the International Energy Agency.
It is also expected that demand for lithium-ion batteries will increase up to tenfold by 2030, according to the US Department for Energy, so manufacturers are constantly building battery plants to keep up.
Lithium mining can be controversial as it can take several years to develop and has a considerable impact on the environment. Extracting the metal requires large amounts of water and energy, and the process can leave huge scars in the landscape, as well as toxic waste.
Dr Nuria Tapia-Ruiz, who leads a team of battery researchers at the chemistry department at Imperial College London, said any material with reduced amounts of lithium and good energy storage capabilities are "the holy grail" in the lithium-ion battery industry.
"AI and supercomputing will become crucial tools for battery researchers in the upcoming years to help predict new high-performing materials," she said.
But Dr Edward Brightman, lecturer in chemical engineering at the University of Strathclyde, said the tech would need to be "treated with a bit of caution".
"It could throw up spurious results, or results that look good at first, and then turn out to either be a material that is known or that can't be synthesised in the lab," he said.
This AI-derived material, which at the moment is simply called N2116, is a solid-state electrolyte that has been tested by scientists who took it from a raw material to a working prototype.
It has the potential to be a sustainable energy storage solution because solid-state batteries are safer than traditional liquid or gel-like lithium.
In the near future, faster charging solid-state lithium batteries promise to be even more energy-dense, with thousands of charge cycles.

How is this AI different?​

The way in which this technology works is by using a new type of AI that Microsoft has created, trained on molecular data that can actually figure out chemistry.
"This AI is all based on scientific materials, database and properties," explained Mr Zander.
"The data is very trustworthy for using it for scientific discovery."
After the software narrowed down the 18 candidates, battery experts at PNNL then looked at them and picked the final substance to work on in the lab.
Karl Mueller from PNNL said the AI insights from Microsoft pointed them "to potentially fruitful territory so much faster" than under normal working conditions.
"[We could] modify, test and tune the chemical composition of this new material and quickly evaluate its technical viability for a working battery, showing the promise of advanced AI to accelerate the innovation cycle," he said.

BBC News

Is this AI or FQD (fû¢kîng quick deduction) ?

 

[MattH1973]

Don't sneer, it's never a good look and never helps a discussion.

Look at the authors - they're from India. Not a country that's known for producing aluminium cars at present, and it's never a bad thing to just go back to first principles and see whether something works for you rather than just taking things as read, things like having few high-tech repair shops can have a big bearing on whether a technology is appropriate for a developing country.

Also there's huge amounts of knowledge that is held within companies but which is not open to the outside world - publishing in academic journals can "free" that knowledge, which is particularly valuable for developing countries, in some ways India's size allows it to act as the R&D hub for the whole of the developing world. Publishing also allows assumptions to be tested that may not be true or which may no longer hold in the modern world.

err - i wasnt sneering. always the problem with communicating by text is that the reader cannot fully understand the context that would be clearer if facial expressions and intonation could be observed.

I found it genuinely baffling that scientists would spend time and money studying something when there are real world data to draw on over more than 2 decades. More broadly this was one of the key issues during covid - scientific models were used to scare us into lockdown when the real world data was far more benign.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/sage-vs-actual-update-as-of-22-jan/
An, in this instance, it's a small point of course - as their study agreed with real world experience.

 

[matt.]

I just got rid of the pug and would have got an ev or hydrogen car but i like Chippy have no means to charge at home and there are no hydrogen pumps in the region, so i got a 1L 3 cylinder nissan juke turbo and what a cracker it is 117 bhp weighs next to nowt on a run up to Nairn and a week round the highlands it averaged 58.8 mpg that will do me, round town it does 49.2 mpg

I'm thinking of getting one of those.
I know there are many variables but what are you paying for insurance and tax?

 

[JockyBrewer]

I found it genuinely baffling that scientists would spend time and money studying something when there are real world data to draw on over more than 2 decades. More broadly this was one of the key issues during covid - scientific models were used to scare us into lockdown when the real world data was far more benign.

That's science - you do an investigation, publish your findings and then let others pick at it. There is no final proof of anything in science, only eventual consensus by piling up enough evidence.

In this case, the authors have looked at a subtly different problem - instead of aluminium being used to improve performance of a car (energy costs be damned), can it be used to reduce the overall energy consumption across a car's lifetime? Can we come up with a formula to calculate that reduction? etc

It's not ground breaking, but it needs to be done. And redone. And reviewed, criticised etc etc, and then we get to consensus.

 

[Rodcx500z]

Hi Matt last year insurance was just under 500 tax not sure wife pays it, they are not everyone's cup of tea but i love it, ours is an accenta looked at the tekna plus but 19 inch wheels put me off and you don't get a lot more for the extra money.

 

[MattH1973]

That's science - you do an investigation, publish your findings and then let others pick at it. There is no final proof of anything in science, only eventual consensus by piling up enough evidence.

In this case, the authors have looked at a subtly different problem - instead of aluminium being used to improve performance of a car (energy costs be damned), can it be used to reduce the overall energy consumption across a car's lifetime? Can we come up with a formula to calculate that reduction? etc

It's not ground breaking, but it needs to be done. And redone. And reviewed, criticised etc etc, and then we get to consensus.

in skimming it I had missed the bit about energy consumption over a car's lifetime - and agree that this might justify a new paper. All I saw were obvious conclusions like Aluminium is lighter, lighter cars use less fuel etc. On points like that I think there is already consensus, and that was the basis of my (to use your phrase in your very helpful explanation of what science is) "picking at it". It's a completely valid challenge to question whether a paper may be redundant, as well as to examine the detail.

 

[hoppyscotty]

But in reality the weight savings of aluminium cars is not that great...aluminium is lighter than steel, but its nowhere near as strong so you need alot more of it to get the same strength and that impacts the design of the car. I know above there is the example of the Range Rover that suggests a massive wight saving moving to aluminium, but I suspect in this particular case there is more to it than that...I think the early monocoque constructed RR's still utilised a traditional ladder chassis so effectively two chassis, then in later models ditched the ladder chassis, so if these were the models where that switchover happened then the majority of weight saving will be from ditching the additional ladder chassis.

Normally you're looking at a negligible weight saving comparing other examples.

e.g. 2003 Aluminium Jag XJ X350 weighed in at 1790kg
2003 5 series BMW steel construction weighted in between 1500 - 1800 kg
2003 Audi A6 steel construction weighed in at around 1750kg

And in case you think the completion to that Jag is a 7 series BMW then a 2003 7 series weighs in at 1800kg - 2100kg

So on the face of it, in the real world with real world engineering and design limitations then barely any weight saving to be had by simple material substitution.

Can look at EV's too...Tesla Model Y mostly aluminium construction weighs in at 1900kg. BMWX3 diesel, a car which is almost identical in size to the Tesla and of steel construction also weighs in at 1900 kg with the 2.0ltr diesel engine and an additional 100kg for the bigger 6 cylinder engine. And the weight of engine and 4wd drivetrain is similar as a Tesla battery pack and motors.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

A battery site capable of storing enough energy to provide two hours of power to 235,000 homes has been approved by planners.

Blaby District Council has given Exagen permission to develop the 19-acre facility near Earl Shilton in Leicestershire.
The company says the £270m project is one of the largest to be granted planning permission in the UK.
Nearly half the site will be planted for biodiversity.

Battery facilities are designed to hold electricity from renewable sources and release it when demand outstrips supply, said the Local Democracy Reporting Service.
Called the Normanton Energy Reserve, the 500MW/1GWh project is designed to supply 80% of the homes in the county for two hours.
It will be directly connected to the National Grid at a new substation.
Exagen said that as part of its environmental commitment landscaping works and planting will take place and be given the chance to establish and grow.
Normanton Millennium Wood will be extended and there will be new wildflower meadows and land for beekeeping, along with new hedgerows and perimeter tree planting.
A community fund to support local projects will be given an initial £250,000, with £50,000 added each year for 40 years.
Jeremy Littman, CEO at Exagen Development, said: "For the UK to achieve its 2050 net zero target at the lowest possible cost, there needs to be an increase in electricity storage capacity to balance renewable energy generation.
"As more renewables are deployed, larger battery projects like Normanton will be required."
"It is vital that they are developed sensitively and in partnership with the local communities that host them."
A timescale for full operation has not been finalised, but Exagen said it plans to commission the project in 2029.


BBC News (UK)

@BBCNews

 

[Rodcx500z]

I see Hertz is selling 20,000 ev;s and going back to petrol, i don't know the reason yet. Just done a quick google high repair costs are being reported, they are also taking a 245 million doller hit in depreciation

 

[Chippy_Tea]

I see Hertz is selling 20,000 ev;s

I will be very surprised if maintenance costs were the main reason.

 

[Rodcx500z]

I will be very surprised if maintenance costs were the main reason.

You could well be right Chippy i only did a quick google

 

[Chippy_Tea]

According to the Telegraph this was only in America due the drop in used EV prices which caused them a huge loss in profit due to them renewing their fleet often, high repair costs were also mentioned but I assume that's because they are running a fleet of Tesla cars that imagime charge a premium for servicing like any top of the range ICE cars, in another article it said they were not popular with Americans due to a lack of charging points and them having to learn how to drive an EV and planning journeys in advance to make sure there were places to charge on route.
----------------------


Three years ago, Hertz announced plans to buy 100,000 Tesla electric cars, a move that pushed Tesla’s market value beyond $1 trillion.

However, Hertz said renting out electric cars had proved to be less profitable than traditional vehicles and the cars had also come with higher repair costs.

Drivers also still want petrol or diesel-powered cars. Hertz said it would “reinvest a portion of the proceeds from the sale of EVs into the purchase of internal combustion engine vehicles to meet customer demand”.

The sell-off, which applies only in the US but amounts to around a third of the company’s global electric vehicle fleet, comes after years of Hertz positioning itself as a “first mover” in electric car rentals.

As well as agreeing to buy 100,000 Teslas, it committed to buying 65,000 vehicles from Polestar, Volvo’s electric subsidiary, and last year it said a quarter of its fleet would be electric by the end of 2024.


However, deliveries to date have been well below those headline numbers.

The company said the decision to sell off thousands of cars was being taken “to better balance supply against expected demand of EVs” and that “this will position the company to eliminate a disproportionate number of lower margin rentals and reduce damage expenses associated with EVs”.

Hertz said investing in petrol-powered cars would improve profitability. It added that it hoped to make electric car rentals more profitable in future by expanding charging stations and improving access to repairs.

Motorists have complained about experiences when renting electric cars as a result of the myriad of different charging networks, the fact that the cars are often unsuitable for long road trips, or in some cases because drivers receive vehicles without fully-charged batteries.

Hertz chief executive Stephen Scherr said last year that the plummeting value of used electric cars also made them less profitable.

The Telegraph

 

[MashBag]

A battery site capable of storing enough energy to provide two hours of power to 235,000 homes has been approved by planners.

View attachment 94672


Blaby District Council has given Exagen permission to develop the 19-acre facility near Earl Shilton in Leicestershire.
The company says the £270m project is one of the largest to be granted planning permission in the UK.
Nearly half the site will be planted for biodiversity.

Battery facilities are designed to hold electricity from renewable sources and release it when demand outstrips supply, said the Local Democracy Reporting Service.
Called the Normanton Energy Reserve, the 500MW/1GWh project is designed to supply 80% of the homes in the county for two hours.
It will be directly connected to the National Grid at a new substation.
Exagen said that as part of its environmental commitment landscaping works and planting will take place and be given the chance to establish and grow.
Normanton Millennium Wood will be extended and there will be new wildflower meadows and land for beekeeping, along with new hedgerows and perimeter tree planting.
A community fund to support local projects will be given an initial £250,000, with £50,000 added each year for 40 years.
Jeremy Littman, CEO at Exagen Development, said: "For the UK to achieve its 2050 net zero target at the lowest possible cost, there needs to be an increase in electricity storage capacity to balance renewable energy generation.
"As more renewables are deployed, larger battery projects like Normanton will be required."
"It is vital that they are developed sensitively and in partnership with the local communities that host them."
A timescale for full operation has not been finalised, but Exagen said it plans to commission the project in 2029.

BBC News (UK)
@BBCNews

What a stunningly bad idea that was.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

What a stunningly bad idea that was.

I disagree, turbines are parked when they do not need to generate electricity why not let them charge batteries instead for times when there is no wind?

 

[MashBag]

What about the loss of food production?
First solar panels. Then biofuel. Now batteries. Next they will build houses

 

[Benfleet Brewery]

 

[MashBag]

By the expression on his face and the height of the quilt, you might think his top of the range tesla had just arrived

 

[Northern_Brewer]

EVs make up something like 90% of new cars in Norway and 23% of the car stock, yet the Norwegian equivalent of the AA found that EVs were responsible for 13% of 34,000 callouts during a period of extreme cold (although age will be a factor too) and in general they make up 21% of callouts in 2024.

Independent quoting Electrek