Electric cars.

[dad_of_jon]

RE: Ev insurance costs, It may relate to TESLA rather than all EV's. Tesla do GIGA castings so less parts to fix together, but those parts are larger so damage to one of those can mean the whole giga-casted part needs to be replaced. That would certainly raise insurance premiums. I recall a Japanese car having lower than usual insurance costs because it had easily replaceable bolt on front wings.

 

[JockyBrewer]

I’m sure I read somewhere that the high insurance premiums for EVs were at least partially down to a lack of competing facilities to repair them.

Basically not enough mechanics can work on them, which means the ones that can are able to charge a higher premium.

 

[dad_of_jon]

I’m sure I read somewhere that the high insurance premiums for EVs were at least partially down to a lack of competing facilities to repair them.

Basically not enough mechanics can work on them, which means the ones that can are able to charge a higher premium.

Of course - insurance companies want to repair your car as cheaply as possible. - I needed 2 resprays following a p1ss poor repair by an insurance approved company. - they were only approved because they were cheap. They sprayed a door pillar black with a wonky line rather than use door pillar black foil the car was fitted with.

If you are ever unfortunate to need a repair you can insist it is done at a manufacturer approved repairer. That way you get the correct paint and parts.

 

[Rodcx500z]

This is one for all the ev owners, i have not watched it so don't quote me

 

[Old Fart At Play]

£5k/year insurance will definitely make EV uneconomical

My EV insurance is £400, due to go up to £600, an increase of 50%. According to the car insurance price index, the average increase is 58%.

So I wouldn't let that article put you off.

 

[gavp1979]

My EV insurance is £400, due to go up to £600, an increase of 50%. According to the car insurance price index, the average increase is 58%.

So I wouldn't let that article put you off.

Seems like a standard increase this year I have recently renewed mine and my mum's (both ICE cars) insurance and they also both rose by around 50%

 

[Chippy_Tea]

Another couple of EV myths blown out of the water.
There seems to be a lot of people hell bent on proving EVs are a waste of space who trot out the same arguments every time and as this thread has shown most are easily proved incorrect..

 

[JockyBrewer]

This is one for all the ev owners, i have not watched it so don't quote me

To expand on that - yes, that could be the largest single lithium deposit found to date, but that's an estimate. Until it's explored there's little certainty.

It's going to take 8-10 years before it will produce anything meaningful, as there's quite a few large bureaucratic, political and construction steps to get there. I'm sure there will be an environmental protest against it too (irony), plus it's on Native American land, plus the USA doesn't have the ability to refine lithium ore yet, so will need to build and staff that.

And all of that might be pointless if someone demonstrates an alternative non-lithium battery and can show a path to commercial viability. Proof of concepts exist that are more energy dense, faster to charge/discharge, have longer life and don't catch fire as easily, but they seem 10-15 years away from being useful.

 

[MattH1973]

If that had said "that proves" instead of "that suggests" I would have read it, saying "that suggests" to me suggests its a load of BS.
Sorry if that sounds confrontational.

I really dont understand your hostility toward those who disagree with you. I suspect you know this but I will explain anyway - The reason I said "suggests" is that (as my post also said) many conflicting studies exist and it is almost impossible to know which one to believe. For you to derive from that that the link contains a "load of BS" is pretty strange. It is for the same reason that i think it is unnecessarily confrontational to use absolute phrases like "No they are not" when the topic is debateable. In my experience boards are a lot more engaging and inclusive when people try to be polite.

 

[JockyBrewer]

And all of that might be pointless if someone demonstrates an alternative non-lithium battery and can show a path to commercial viability. Proof of concepts exist that are more energy dense, faster to charge/discharge, have longer life and don't catch fire as easily, but they seem 10-15 years away from being useful.

Just seen that Toyota has once again said that they'll be mass producing solid state batteries in 2027 or 2028. These batteries charge in 10 minutes and have a 700+ mile range.

In 2014 they said it would be 2020, so they've been saying this for a while, but at least the horizon is creeping closer.

 

[MattH1973]

Just seen that Toyota has once again said that they'll be mass producing solid state batteries in 2027 or 2028. These batteries charge in 10 minutes and have a 700+ mile range.

In 2014 they said it would be 2020, so they've been saying this for a while, but at least the horizon is creeping closer.

good point - because of Toyota's pioneering role in Hybrid vehicles I think they speak with credibility on this - solid state batteries could be a potential game changer. Of course, Toyota have also been clear for a whole now that being entirely dependent on lithium electric cars isnt sustainable in the forseeable future and that alternatives (hydrogen and solid state) need to also be part of the mix. I share this view - current EVs are suitable for many use cases but not all, and the ICE will only die once suitable alternatives are found.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I really wish people wouldnt slap others down so much, I see no need to be so confrontational. Here is one link that suggests something contrary to your view. Maybe you are a deep sea miner yourself and know me to be wrong,

I studied geology to degree level and have followed the mining industry for some decades; I don't know the detail of every single deposit, but I am aware of the general trends in mining.

So yep - people are not scraping the ocean floors looking for lithium, and your piece by non-geologists/miners (surely you should require the same qualifications of your sources as you do me?!) does not link to evidence of seabed mining of lithium. It links to a USGS piece that states some seabed nodules contain lithium, that's all.

There's some commercial mining offshore on the continental shelf within countries national economic zones, it tends to be niche stuff like de Beers mining diamonds off Namibia. But the real interest is in metallic nodules in the deep ocean, which are mostly transition metals like manganese and nickel. It's technically difficult as it's so deep, and it's international waters so the regulatory situation is complicated, which has all conspired to make progress slow - there's been test recoveries up to a few 1000t but nothing "commercial" AFAIAA. Yes there's some nodules eg off Peru that have a certain lithium content, but a) lithium is not the focus and b) that's not where people are looking, no permits have been issued for the areas where nodules contain lithium. The main hotspot is the Clarion-Clipperton Zone in the NE Pacific, but there's also activity in the Indian Ocean and NW Pacific. See the report of the International Seabed Authority :
https://www.isa.org.jm/secretary-general-annual-report-2023/#chapters
But at least in this instance you provided a link so it can be debunked, if you don't provide links and details of the assumptions being made, it's impossible to have a rational debate with you, and people are right to call you out on that even if it feels like confrontation to you.

I've got to dash, but in the meantime, you might want to read this, which goes into more detail about the VW study from a few years ago (it relies on the e-Golf, which hasn't been made for 3 years) which makes several bad assumptions :
https://www.carbonbrief.org/factcheck-21-misleading-myths-about-electric-vehicles/
More substantively, the figures behind the VW analysis – shared with Carbon Brief in 2020 – show that the company makes the same key errors identified above. (See: FALSE: ‘An EV has to travel 50,000+ miles to break even’.)

Specifically: VW overestimates the emissions associated with making batteries; VW fails to account for the real-world fuel economy of its diesel Golf; VW underestimates the emissions associated with diesel fuel production; and VW overestimates the emissions in EU electricity.

Correcting for these errors shows that the e-Golf – if it were still being produced – would pay off its carbon debt after closer to 14,000 miles

 

[MattH1973]

I studied geology to degree level and have followed the mining industry for some decades; I don't know the detail of every single deposit, but I am aware of the general trends in mining.

So yep - people are not scraping the ocean floors looking for lithium, and your piece by non-geologists/miners (surely you should require the same qualifications of your sources as you do me?!) does not link to evidence of seabed mining of lithium. It links to a USGS piece that states some seabed nodules contain lithium, that's all.

There's some commercial mining offshore on the continental shelf within countries national economic zones, it tends to be niche stuff like de Beers mining diamonds off Namibia. But the real interest is in metallic nodules in the deep ocean, which are mostly transition metals like manganese and nickel. It's technically difficult as it's so deep, and it's international waters so the regulatory situation is complicated, which has all conspired to make progress slow - there's been test recoveries up to a few 1000t but nothing "commercial" AFAIAA. Yes there's some nodules eg off Peru that have a certain lithium content, but a) lithium is not the focus and b) that's not where people are looking, no permits have been issued for the areas where nodules contain lithium. The main hotspot is the Clarion-Clipperton Zone in the NE Pacific, but there's also activity in the Indian Ocean and NW Pacific. See the report of the International Seabed Authority :
https://www.isa.org.jm/secretary-general-annual-report-2023/#chapters
But at least in this instance you provided a link so it can be debunked, if you don't provide links and details of the assumptions being made, it's impossible to have a rational debate with you, and people are right to call you out on that even if it feels like confrontation to you.

I've got to dash, but in the meantime, you might want to read this, which goes into more detail about the VW study from a few years ago (it relies on the e-Golf, which hasn't been made for 3 years) which makes several bad assumptions :
https://www.carbonbrief.org/factcheck-21-misleading-myths-about-electric-vehicles/
More substantively, the figures behind the VW analysis – shared with Carbon Brief in 2020 – show that the company makes the same key errors identified above. (See: FALSE: ‘An EV has to travel 50,000+ miles to break even’.)

Specifically: VW overestimates the emissions associated with making batteries; VW fails to account for the real-world fuel economy of its diesel Golf; VW underestimates the emissions associated with diesel fuel production; and VW overestimates the emissions in EU electricity.

Correcting for these errors shows that the e-Golf – if it were still being produced – would pay off its carbon debt after closer to 14,000 miles

Thanks for responding, a few points:
- I didnt "require" you to have any qualifications. I was speculating (correctly as it turned out) that you know quite a lot about mining.
- As to your rather sanctimonious reference that "at least I posted a link" I would observe that you didnt post a link in that part of your initial slapdown. I hardly think it is reasonable therefore for you to say that a rational debate with me is impossible - when you are making absolute black and white statements and not evidencing them when you do. It is the slapdowns that feel confrontational - if you feel a post is lacking in evidence then why not just ask for an example or substantiation ?
- As to the substance it seems the situation with ocean floor mining is complex, thank you for setting that out. I think the original point holds, though, that as EV battery demand increases more intensive mining methods may be needed to extract the minerals.
- Thank you also for setting out the rebuttal to the VW study. I think this plays to my point that there are various studies pointing in all directions and it is very hard to know which to trust. I would observe that Carbon Brief seem to have a heavily pro decarbonisation agenda and I'd be interested in why you think their study is so much more reliable than the VW one ? Have VW acknowledged that their initial study was flawed ? [if they have then i will gladly stand corrected and start using other examples] Again, the broader point that EVs are more environmentally damaging to manufacture, and the payback takes time, seems to hold. It isn't a surprise that studies support a range of conclusions on how long that payback period is.
- And I'm not sure why it matters that VW arent making the eGolf any more ?! Should studies whose conclusions you agree with be set aside once the cars they are based on are no longer in production ?

 

[Chippy_Tea]

And all of that might be pointless if someone demonstrates an alternative non-lithium battery and can show a path to commercial viability. Proof of concepts exist that are more energy dense, faster to charge/discharge, have longer life and don't catch fire as easily, but they seem 10-15 years away from being useful.

Just seen that Toyota has once again said that they'll be mass producing solid state batteries in 2027 or 2028. These batteries charge in 10 minutes and have a 700+ mile range.

In 2014 they said it would be 2020, so they've been saying this for a while, but at least the horizon is creeping closer.

Big breakthroughs in battery technology were always going to happen as manufacturers want to give customers the most miles per charge they can get.

 

[Davegase]

This is how to save the planet

 

[Chippy_Tea]

I really dont understand your hostility toward those who disagree with you.

Apart from you who are these people who disagree with me that i am supposedly being hostile towards?


How many layers of cotton wool do you wrap yourself in before you leave the house?
Please dont take that as being confrontational its a joke

 

[Chippy_Tea]

This is how to save the planet

I would love to know the reason why NRMA installed that as they are a huge company supplying charging stations

Obviously using a diesel generator to power an EV charger is crazy but i do have to ask why it need to run 24/7 (as he says in the video) why not just when someone plugs in.

Normal charging station below.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

A little digging later and it seems the person in the video conveniently forgot to mention its a solar powered charger with battery banks and a generator for backup.

 

[Davegase]

A little digging later and it seems the person in the video conveniently forgot to mention its a solar powered charger with battery banks and a generator for backup.



View attachment 91180

Still an entertaining clip
By the way I'm all for electric vehicles. I doubt I'll be able to afford one while I'm still driving though.

 

[Rodcx500z]

Could be out in the sticks with no leccy hook up, but as you say no need to run gen 24/7, should be put your card in and pay for what you use like a petrol pump