Electric cars.

[Chippy_Tea]

Ahh, that old chestnut. There's little to no debris in the fuel out of the forecourt pumps and cars have fuel filters anyway just in case and these are changed at periodic service intervals.

The fuel filter that is changed at service intervals is between the pump and engine debris can partially block the pump filter causing damage to the pump a very expensive item to replace, why risk it by running your car low on fuel all the time?

You say "there is little to no debris in the fuel out of the forecourt" how do you know this i can honestly say i haven't looked inside a car fuel tank in all the time i have been driving, why do manufacturers fit a filter if its not an issue?

And another reason most of us will not have thought of -

Can running out of gas damage a fuel pump? Yes.

When the level of fuel in a fuel tank gets very low, that constant flow through the pump can be interrupted. This is because the pump's intake can't reach into the very bottom of the tank or the motion of the vehicle pulls the gas away from it, intermittently leaving the intake high and dry. Low fuel also puts extra strain on the pump. Since there is less pressure pushing fuel into the pump, the pump must work harder to draw it in.

Edit to add -
I didn't know the submerged pump was cooled by the petrol or diesel in the tank.

The main reason it's advisable not to run on fumes is to protect the fuel pump. In some applications the fuel pump is cooled by the surrounding gasoline at the bottom of the tank. Now, if there is very little fuel left, the pump is not submerged and may overheat and fail prematurely,

 

[Northern_Brewer]

My Diesel focus is coming to end of its 4 year deal, struggling to find anything that matches it £100 per month PCP, zero road tax, real world 58mpg.
As I do about 16k a year this has been the best car i owned especially on motorways and dual carriageways.
Looked at EVs nothing close to price range in my area looking at at least 2.5 times that per month for PCP.

That's not an "EVs are expensive" thing though, that's a "anything is more expensive than an old diesel Focus" thing.

Just skimming the AA, there's a 70-plate base-model Tesla 3 with 19k miles on the clock for £22k, PCP £396pm, 0-60 in 5.3s, 238 mile real-world range when new.
And there's a 70-plate Focus 1.5 Tdci with 15k miles on the clock for £20k, PCP £373pm, 0-60 in 9.9s, 54-59mpg, 561 miles per tank.

Assume the new Focus does the same 58mpg as your current one, that's 15.3 miles per litre, so if you are averaging 1,333 miles per month (16k/year) that's 87 litres per month. Average petrol price in Glasgow is currently 140.9p, diesel will be a bit more but we'll pretend it's petrol so you can add diesel costs of £123/month to that PCP cost to make a monthly total of £496/month.

The Tesla does about 4 miles to the kWh, on the Intelligent Octopus Go tariff you can charge overnight for 7.5p/kWh, so your 1,333 miles per month would cost £25 for a total of £421/month.

Last time I looked, £421 was less than £496...

You're out on the cost of a home charger - Checkatrade reckon a Tesla charger costs £499 and average installation is £500 so £999 total - that's about 10 months of the difference between diesel and electricity costs. And in theory since you're only doing 60 miles (15kWh) a day you could trickle charge overnight off a normal mains plug.

And did I mention 0-60 in 5.3s versus 9.9s?

 

[dad_of_jon]

I tend to refuel my car when it gets between a quarter and empty I don't like to go too low as you don't know what **** is sloshing about in the bottom of the tank so i would charge my EV at a quarter, I thought the 80% was the cut off point for fast chargers and there was no problem charging to full charge using the slower home chargers.

When I get to 1/4 I look to fill up to full. here's a question that shows I only paid a bit of attention in school. ... e=mc2. So does a fully charged EV battery weight more than an empty one? - I suppose I could do this experiment with a duracell AA . Because 2 litres of fuel weighs about 38kg less than 40 litres of petrol (we're all brewers here so we know OG & SG it's not quite 1KG per kilo )

my point being is an ICE can fill up to 100% no risk to fuel tank capacity so the actual range calcs may differ between the energy sources. Our nearest petrol station is 5 mins WALK away but is dearer so I travel 6 miles to get 6-7p a litre off only when I need to get shopping in. Always having 80% in the tank is actually quite appealing to me. It's rare that I need to travel a long distance with no warning. I do have range anxiety sometimes with mrs DOJ's car it gets about 280 on a tankful. that is a pain.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

What I think is we need the next generation of batteries. They don't have to be more high powered, they need to be less expensive & safer.

That's already happened, with the introduction of sodium-ion batteries.

Then make them in universal modules, so you could switch out just a couple of modules rather than an entire cars worth of batteries.

Although that is already happening in niche cases like some Chinese taxis, it's not going to be the norm. Partly because the move is towards making the battery pack an integral part of the chassis to reduce weight, partly because that model means ultimately someone is paying for additional batteries that are sat at a charge point, partly because charging is getting to the stage where it's good enough for normal people. If you can charge 80% in 30 minutes, you're talking 30 minutes break on a 500-mile journey from Southampton to Dundee - during which any normal person is going to need a break.

 

[jof]

Although that is already happening in niche cases like some Chinese taxis, it's not going to be the norm. Partly because the move is towards making the battery pack an integral part of the chassis to reduce weight

Not quite what I meant.
If we think about a simple case of a van, it might have say 12 battery modules under the floor. And when they start to go, you could just lift a floor panel and switch 1 or 2 out as needed
You would also have 8 of the same sized packs in a car, or 6 in a small car.
Just easier to standardize them, rather than every vehicle has specially shaped bespoke battery pack.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

Just easier to standardize them, rather than every vehicle has specially shaped bespoke battery pack

If battery swap stations are to be become the go to place for those that cannot charge at home and who do big daily miles (reps etc) they are going to have to become standardised.

 

[MashBag]

Not sure halving the cost of a $7000 component on a $50,000 car will have any impact on the selling price of the car.

I must have read that wrong, did you mean new or used?

 

[MashBag]

paradox...you never actually feel an improvement in the speed of your computer with ever improving and faster processors as software out develops it and soaks up all the performance advantage so you end up with a more expensive computer and more expensive software.

Do you mean more processing power enables you to do more complex things?

I certainly can feel performance, without a doubt.

 

[jof]

Do you mean more processing power enables you to do more complex things?

I certainly can feel performance, without a doubt.

No he doesn't.
It because operating systems are more greedy on resources & programmers are more lazy.


<Rant>
Perceived speed of running office 97 on a 200MHz pentium pro is no different & in fact sometimes faster than running office 365 on a 2400MHz i5.

Also modern website design is ****. Too much animated / video content (though video auto play can be disabled). High Res images when you will never appreciate that they are high Res unless you show them on a cinema sized image wall. But the worse culprit is the sheer number and size of JavaScript libraries they load, a lot of which are ad tracking (I'm looking at you Google) and frameworks of which only a fraction is used.

All programmers should have a 10 year old netbook / 5 year old phone on the test desk and be forced to ensure their product works at an acceptable speed on them.
</Rant>

Same sort of thing with all cars at the moment. The ad behemoth has essentially forced manufacturers to sell their cars on gadgets as apparently there is no mileage in reliability/maintainability or economy.
Look at historic electric vehicles in the UK, limited to milk floats, fork lifts & those 3 wheeled factory tugs. All mechanically simple & designed so you can change the battery every (guess) 10 years.

 

[dad_of_jon]

Not quite what I meant.
If we think about a simple case of a van, it might have say 12 battery modules under the floor. And when they start to go, you could just lift a floor panel and switch 1 or 2 out as needed
You would also have 8 of the same sized packs in a car, or 6 in a small car.
Just easier to standardize them, rather than every vehicle has specially shaped bespoke battery pack.

they already have it for electric scooters and it would work for ebikes where the battery isnt too heavy

 

[old dog new tricks]

That's not an "EVs are expensive" thing though, that's a "anything is more expensive than an old diesel Focus" thing.

Just skimming the AA, there's a 70-plate base-model Tesla 3 with 19k miles on the clock for £22k, PCP £396pm, 0-60 in 5.3s, 238 mile real-world range when new.
And there's a 70-plate Focus 1.5 Tdci with 15k miles on the clock for £20k, PCP £373pm, 0-60 in 9.9s, 54-59mpg, 561 miles per tank.

Assume the new Focus does the same 58mpg as your current one, that's 15.3 miles per litre, so if you are averaging 1,333 miles per month (16k/year) that's 87 litres per month. Average petrol price in Glasgow is currently 140.9p, diesel will be a bit more but we'll pretend it's petrol so you can add diesel costs of £123/month to that PCP cost to make a monthly total of £496/month.

The Tesla does about 4 miles to the kWh, on the Intelligent Octopus Go tariff you can charge overnight for 7.5p/kWh, so your 1,333 miles per month would cost £25 for a total of £421/month.

Last time I looked, £421 was less than £496...

You're out on the cost of a home charger - Checkatrade reckon a Tesla charger costs £499 and average installation is £500 so £999 total - that's about 10 months of the difference between diesel and electricity costs. And in theory since you're only doing 60 miles (15kWh) a day you could trickle charge overnight off a normal mains plug.

And did I mention 0-60 in 5.3s versus 9.9s?

Fair point but anyone who pays £20k for a 3 year old focus is off their rocker that crazy money for what it is.

My point is when looking to replace my car, my previous deal was car at 4 years old and 50k miles negotiated the price to £8250 and due to high residuals gave a cracking PCP price £100 per month. Previously I tended to buy my cars in the 3-5 year old range with up to 60k miles as this offered the best value, it is this sector of used cars that has rocketed (well for retail at least, buy back or trade in is still horrendously low) i can not get near this. In this instance it might make more sense to buy the car out at £2700 and run it for another year or 2 until prices settle if they ever do.

But thanks for the breakdown on the figures, that may alter my thinking, but my current energy provider that i am locked into for 18 months yet does not offer any reduced EV tariff so I would need to calculate on the higher figures.
I like the idea of regular trickle charges from 3 pin plug as i imagine that does less damage to battery than rapid high current fast charges?

But if your comparison is correct this could help offset the increased monthly PCP costs as give the sharp depreciation is major factor.

As I say not bashing EVs I have huge admiration for them and battery aside believe they are capable or intergalactic mileage with far few moving parts.

As much as Tesla are amazing simply out my price range and I need hatchback or estate for practicality, (the focus can swallow 3m lengths of timber for example)

Only thing that leaps out as even touching on affordable is the Hyundai Hyundai Kona 150kW Premium 64kWh, even then coming in at bout £15k or £235 per month PCO as my mileage drives up costs, and most dealers wont offer PCP an anything over 5 years or 60k so rules out higher milege EVs.

Definately be giving this serious thought thou and thank you for your comments, it has opened my eyes somewhat

assuming

 

[MashBag]

I agree about sloppy code and websites but an i5 isn't a performance processor.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Not quite what I meant.
If we think about a simple case of a van, it might have say 12 battery modules under the floor. And when they start to go, you could just lift a floor panel and switch 1 or 2 out as needed
You would also have 8 of the same sized packs in a car, or 6 in a small car.
Just easier to standardize them, rather than every vehicle has specially shaped bespoke battery pack.

When you say "when they start to go" - are you talking about end of life? If so, what exactly is the problem you are looking to solve?

The average British car has a life expectancy of 17.9 years and will have done 138,000 miles when scrapped. This chart is based on real-world data from Tesla Model S 2013-2022, and suggests that the average Model S will still have nearly 90% of its charge at 138,000 miles. And that's based on the state of the art 10 years ago. Musk has said that the current battery packs should be good for 1500 cycles, so 300-500,000 miles, and his stated aim is a million-mile battery pack, to bring it up to the same as the chassis and motor.

For more on Tesla battery life, see :
https://www.motortrend.com/features/how-long-does-a-tesla-battery-last/
https://www.nimblefins.co.uk/study-real-life-tesla-battery-deterioration

Also you overestimate the difficulty of having custom battery packs. Historically Tesla used about 4000 cells, split into modules, which were about the size of a D cell but half the diameter. They're now moving to a bigger, fatter version of a D cell which will cut the number in a pack to less than 1000. But all the complexity is in the cell, once you have the cells they're just spot welded to a frame by a robot and it doesn't really matter what shape the frame is - but it does allow you to save 10-20% of the size and weight of the car. And as we've seen with phones, smaller and lighter beats consumer-replaceable. There will be niches where it works, but not for mainstream cars.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

My point is when looking to replace my car, my previous deal was car at 4 years old and 50k miles negotiated the price to £8250 and due to high residuals gave a cracking PCP price £100 per month. Previously I tended to buy my cars in the 3-5 year old range with up to 60k miles as this offered the best value, it is this sector of used cars that has rocketed (well for retail at least, buy back or trade in is still horrendously low) i can not get near this. In this instance it might make more sense to buy the car out at £2700 and run it for another year or 2 until prices settle if they ever do.

But again, that's not an EV thing, it's a "weird car market of the last few years" thing, and by thinking of 4-year cars as your norm you are running into the weirdest cohort of the lot, the 70-plates that were ordered before Covid and then sat on a drive during lockdowns and WFH. It's nuts how many there are with only 15k or so on the clock, and they are always going to be a distorting factor as they go through the system coupled with the fact that there's relatively few of them as people weren't buying and supplies were reduced due to semiconductor shortages, shipping problems etc.

Also any new PCP is going to feel a lot more expensive due to higher interest rates, financing £8250 is going to be closer to £200 than £100/month now just due to interest rates.

I like the idea of regular trickle charges from 3 pin plug as i imagine that does less damage to battery than rapid high current fast charges?

Car batteries are not the same as phone batteries - aside from a handful of the early models like the first Leaf, they all have far more sophisticated cooling and control electronics which minimises damage, and the dedicated 7kW home chargers are not considered "fast" charging - I think you can assume that the Teslas in the graph in my previous post were all home charged and got to just under 90% at 138,000 miles. It's not a big issue, certainly not as big as people make out. ISTR reading about a Tesla that had been almost exclusively fast-charged (as in the 30-minute fillups at garages) and it was at 85% when you'd expect home-charged ones to be 90%, something like that.

Tesla did seem to produce a few "Friday afternoon" packs in the early days that were at 75% after 8 years, but they seem to have mostly ironed those out. The US rules mandate a battery pack guarantee of 8 years so most manufacturers offer that internationally although the terms vary - the Leaf gets replacements if it's less than 75% within 8 years IIRC.

Only thing that leaps out as even touching on affordable is the Hyundai Hyundai Kona 150kW Premium 64kWh, even then coming in at bout £15k or £235 per month PCO as my mileage drives up costs, and most dealers wont offer PCP an anything over 5 years or 60k so rules out higher milege EVs.

Maybe HP instead? Only adds £50 or so at this level. How about a 69-plate e-Golf with 58k miles for £11.4k, images 7 & 11 propose HP and PCP at £244 (5y) and £201 (4y) for 10k miles? Original real-world range was 150 miles which isn't great but could work if your mileage is fairly consistent day to day. And should be slow enough for you if you're used to diesel Focuses...

 

[old dog new tricks]

Ok points taken my slow diesel focus and I will stay in the slow lane well away from your supersonic EVs then

 

[Chippy_Tea]

Ok points taken my slow diesel focus and I will stay in the slow lane well away from your supersonic EVs then

There is another big problem coming for ICE owners and it'll not be long before we start to notice as more people move to EV (and less so to HEV) the government are going to lose a huge amount in fuel duty i can see "Dirty Diesel" being hit hardest and fastest to try to persuade us to move to EV and clean up the environment. (*sic)

* remember when governments pushed us into diesel car ownership telling us how wonderful they are -

Ten million diesel cars could be affected, after successive governments championed diesel cars as cheap to run and less harmful to the planet. Only the newest vehicles will be excluded from the “toxin tax”.
Veterinary nurse Sarah Whittingham, 37, from Allestree, Derbys, bought her 06 Ford Focus diesel turbo five years ago. Her hubby Gregg, 42, a self-employed plumber, drives a diesel Vauxhall Vivaro.
With a £20 charge on diesels entering Derby set to come into force in 2019, Sarah blasted: “Having diesel vehicles will cost my family £160 a week.”
Full article - https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/32480...mily-an-160-extra-a-week-say-fuming-families/

 

[old dog new tricks]

Good spot had not seen this. Big part of why I bought this car was the upcoming LEZ in Glasgow city centre as it was compliant.
If they change the rules yet again then does alter the balance.
Then again rules are not the same across the UK motorcycle are expemt from LEZ in Scotland but not in London. My old carb bike would not qualify but on owners forum when tested and certified by approved testers a fit well serviced bike falls under the cut off.

Ah well looks like back to public transport or a push bike then when the nanny state takes affect

 

[Chippy_Tea]

Best used electric cars for under £10,000​

• Our guide to the best affordable used electric cars
• Affordable used electric hatchbacks and family cars
• The best second-hand EVs for less than £10,000

https://www.parkers.co.uk/electric-cars/affordable-electric-used-cars/

 

[old dog new tricks]

Best used electric cars for under £10,000​

• Our guide to the best affordable used electric cars
• Affordable used electric hatchbacks and family cars
• The best second-hand EVs for less than £10,000

https://www.parkers.co.uk/electric-cars/affordable-electric-used-cars/

Cheers for that but nothing there has the range that works for me I need something that can do at least 150 miles in subzero temp so at least 200+ to get that. The prices are still too high might need to bite the bullet buy out my current car and wait and see if suitable EVs start to trickle into the market as lease and PCP deals come to an end

 

[Leon103]

The fuel filter that is changed at service intervals is between the pump and engine debris can partially block the pump filter causing damage to the pump a very expensive item to replace, why risk it by running your car low on fuel all the time?

You say "there is little to no debris in the fuel out of the forecourt" how do you know this i can honestly say i haven't looked inside a car fuel tank in all the time i have been driving, why do manufacturers fit a filter if its not an issue?

And another reason most of us will not have thought of -

Can running out of gas damage a fuel pump? Yes.

When the level of fuel in a fuel tank gets very low, that constant flow through the pump can be interrupted. This is because the pump's intake can't reach into the very bottom of the tank or the motion of the vehicle pulls the gas away from it, intermittently leaving the intake high and dry. Low fuel also puts extra strain on the pump. Since there is less pressure pushing fuel into the pump, the pump must work harder to draw it in.

Edit to add -
I didn't know the submerged pump was cooled by the petrol or diesel in the tank.

I have been using 2 Jerry cans for 20 years and there is no crud in either.