Electric cars.

[AlBrew]

It's a bit like saying if we all needed to buy petrol at the same time there's not enough pumps/petrol available, which is also true.

And we've seen that happen a few times

 

[Leon103]

Not sure halving the cost of a $7000 component on a $50,000 car will have any impact on the selling price of the car. Especially since what is likely to happen is larger and more expensive batteries will be fitted now to get more range, which is peoples main bugbear with BEV's, thus completely negating the cost savings. Its the computer processor paradox...you never actually feel an improvement in the speed of your computer with ever improving and faster processors as software out develops it and soaks up all the performance advantage so you end up with a more expensive computer and more expensive software.

Perhaps the overall cost is being reduced, not just the battery. Perhaps more government initiatives to assist?

 

[Chippy_Tea]

its not just price its charging network, if we all switched tomorrow the grid would not be able to cope.

If we all switched to EV and all plugged in at 7am tomorrow morning I can imagine there would be a problem, this subiect has been brought up several times in the thread and as take up of EV gets higher it has been shown there will be plenty of electricity to charge them.

Edit to add - I see Jocky has already covered this.

Even if we all switched to EVs overnight, we estimate demand would only increase by around 10%. So we’d still be using less power as a nation than we did in 2002, and this is well within the range the grid can capably handle."

 

[jof]

If we all switched to EV and all plugged in at 7am tomorrow morning I can imagine there would be a problem, this subiect has been brought up several times in the thread and as take up of EV gets higher it has been shown there will be plenty of electricity to charge them.

Edit to add - I see Jocky has already covered this.

I think on average the grid could cope.
But I also believe there are a lot of places where it wouldn't due to infrastructure bottlenecks.
Reasonable size towns would be ok.

Problems will occur in more rural areas, for example where big housing estates have been added to villages. Not just electric, but water/sewage, amenities etc.

Also at some point I can see problems when rural visitor attractions will be forced to supply x electric car charging points too. Not sure that's going to be workable if you think (for example) of remote RSPB car parks.

What I think is we need the next generation of batteries. They don't have to be more high powered, they need to be less expensive & safer. Then make them in universal modules, so you could switch out just a couple of modules rather than an entire cars worth of batteries.

Electric vehicles need to go to a more maintainable construction as their simpler design should mean they last a lot longer. Idealistic I know & if it were to happen it would be on commercial vehicles. maybe (company) car taxation needs changing to favour of long term ownership of new eco friendly models

 

[Northern_Brewer]

its not just price its charging network, if we all switched tomorrow the grid would not be able to cope.

But we're not going to switch tomorrow, any more than we are going to switch to running cars on Irn Bru.

And most people don't need a charging network - 90% of cars never do more than 200 miles in a day, and 70% of households have access to off-road parking where they could charge overnight. Charging at home overnight is the norm - I've mentioned before on this thread how I know someone who only charged once away from home in 2 years of owning an EV, and that was just to see how it worked. And they went electric purely for economic reasons - they had a heavy commute so were spending £200/month on petrol, but could rent a Leaf for £200/month and fuel it for buttons. I don't pretend it's typical to spend £200/month on petrol - but for that person the economics were terrific.

 

[dad_of_jon]

https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/luton-airport-fire-car-park-cause-b2517206.html



TLDR
The report also concluded that the car had a diesel engine, and stated that ‘it was not a mild hybrid, plug-in hybrid or electric vehicle’, quashing widespread internet claims that the blaze was started by a battery-powered model.

It is a fact that EV fires are harder to extinguish compared to ice fires. Will new techniques be developed to reduce this impact? Hopefully. I recall it was a JLR vehicle form the pics that went up. So if you see a Range Rover parked next to an EV Regardless of what started the fire the impact will be greater if ev's with particular battery chemistries combust. And the lidl/happy shopper car park was a great example of a cost saving / rake in the money design. Ev's are heavier per equivalent ice so extra structural load leading to reduced time to fail - call me old school but more concrete required. Until safer battery chemistries lower weight vehicles are deployed the risks to the public will increase.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

And most people don't need a charging network - 90% of cars never do more than 200 miles in a day, and 70% of households have access to off-road parking where they could charge overnight

I think a lot of people mistakenly think you charge an EV the same as you do a phone, for high milage drivers a nightly charge will be required for the other 90% a charge when the battery is getting low will suffice, if I owned an EV this would be once a week (probably less) as I rarely do more than 200 miles a week.

 

[dad_of_jon]

I think a lot of people mistakenly think you charge an EV the same as you do a phone, for high milage drivers a nightly charge will be required for the other 90% a charge when the battery is getting low will suffice, if I owned an EV this would be once a week (probably less) as I rarely do more than 200 miles a week.

interesting point you make about charging chippy. my son & I had new HTC phones at the same time. mine lasted 3.5 years his 18 months. I topped up most of the time he went from full to dead. we used the phones in those days much less than today as android was not that good then.

80-20% charge is recommended for the battery type used in lots of cars. In an ideal world the car bms would stop you from going outside of this. But it's not obvious when acquiring a new ev (unless is in the owners guide that doesn't get read- but then it could be too late) , sort of similar to belt in oil on ICE cars.

if a car had in the specs battery size 30KW , usable size 18KW it would not sell. So as a manufacturer I would either.... oversize the battery but only quote 20-80 and let the bms stop going outside the healthy charge rate for the battery OR, put a warning and let the user decide to override with the consequence of reduced longevity. At least when buying Computer storage the actual size in MB is not too much more than the usable formatted size.

So when buying an ev secondhand how do you know the battery has been looked after or abused previously. I wonder if there are state of battery reports you can get done for second hand ev's?

 

[JockyBrewer]

interesting point you make about charging chippy. my son & I had new HTC phones at the same time. mine lasted 3.5 years his 18 months. I topped up most of the time he went from full to dead. we used the phones in those days much less than today as android was not that good then.

80-20% charge is recommended for the battery type used in lots of cars. In an ideal world the car bms would stop you from going outside of this. But it's not obvious when acquiring a new ev (unless is in the owners guide that doesn't get read- but then it could be too late) , sort of similar to belt in oil on ICE cars.

if a car had in the specs battery size 30KW , usable size 18KW it would not sell. So as a manufacturer I would either.... oversize the battery but only quote 20-80 and let the bms stop going outside the healthy charge rate for the battery OR, put a warning and let the user decide to override with the consequence of reduced longevity. At least when buying Computer storage the actual size in MB is not too much more than the usable formatted size.

So when buying an ev secondhand how do you know the battery has been looked after or abused previously. I wonder if there are state of battery reports you can get done for second hand ev's?

I think that most/all EVs now come with settings for the default max charge, with 80% being the norm, but you can change the setting permanently or override for on a per charge basis when you need that full battery. I'm pretty sure that they will all easily tell you the health of the battery too - that was the case with the Nissan Leaf more than a decade ago.

The cheaper LFP batteries we're starting to see in cars now stay healthier longer, and with more investment in newer battery chemistries, management software it'll be less of an issue. I also think that as EVs become ubiquitous the consumer understanding will be there too and everyone will get less anxious.

 

[Leon103]

interesting point you make about charging chippy. my son & I had new HTC phones at the I guess your sons use was slightly more than yours.same time. mine lasted 3.5 years his 18 months. I topped up most of the time he went from full to dead. we used the phones in those days much less than today as android was not that good then.

80-20% charge is recommended for the battery type used in lots of cars. In an ideal world the car bms would stop you from going outside of this. But it's not obvious when acquiring a new ev (unless is in the owners guide that doesn't get read- but then it could be too late) , sort of similar to belt in oil on ICE cars.

if a car had in the specs battery size 30KW , usable size 18KW it would not sell. So as a manufacturer I would either.... oversize the battery but only quote 20-80 and let the bms stop going outside the healthy charge rate for the battery OR, put a warning and let the user decide to override with the consequence of reduced longevity. At least when buying Computer storage the actual size in MB is not too much more than the usable formatted size.

So when buying an ev secondhand how do you know the battery has been looked after or abused previously. I wonder if there are state of battery reports you can get done for second hand ev's?

I guess your sons use was slightly more than yours. Also what do you mean by lasted, did batteries on both phones die? I have never had a phone battery die, its usually software getting outdated that becomes the issue

 

[Chippy_Tea]

80-20% charge is recommended for the battery type used in lots of cars.

I tend to refuel my car when it gets between a quarter and empty I don't like to go too low as you don't know what crap is sloshing about in the bottom of the tank so i would charge my EV at a quarter, I thought the 80% was the cut off point for fast chargers and there was no problem charging to full charge using the slower home chargers.

 

[AlBrew]

I tend to refuel my car when it gets between a quarter and empty I don't like to go too low as you don't know what **** is sloshing about in the bottom of the tank so i would charge my EV at a quarter, I thought the 80% was the cut off point for fast chargers and there was no problem charging to full charge using the slower home chargers.

I just plug it in whenever I'm home, default charge is to 70%, change it to something higher if I think I need it.

You can fast charge to greater than 80% but the car will slow the charge as it get closer to 100% so not relay fast charging for the last 10-15% or so.

 

[old dog new tricks]

Yes but the rip off culture surrounding EVs does not help £1500 to install a home 'charger' that is daylight robbery no matter how you dress it up.

My Diesel focus is coming to end of its 4 year deal, struggling to find anything that matches it £100 per month PCP, zero road tax, real world 58mpg.
As I do about 16k a year this has been the best car i owned especially on motorways and dual carriageways.
Looked at EVs nothing close to price range in my area looking at at least 2.5 times that per month for PCP.
other option is the horror stories that are early Nissan Leaf, yes they are coming down in price but living in area that drops below freezing for half the year the range drops to less than 50 miles, that would struggle to get me to and from work and no means of recharge in my work.
Not against the idea of an EV far from it but the costs are still too high and the depreciation is crippling hence why PCP deals as more expensive than ICE.

For me looks like the best option is to buy out my 2016 Focus with 103k from the PCP deal, any ICE after 2017 I lose the tax free status, it still fully complies with the Glasgow LEZ etc, buy out clause of £2700 means its cheaper than any new PCP deal

 

[JockyBrewer]

You're not the only one in that situation. My next car will almost certainly be an EV, but currently I have a 13 year old Golf that I've had for 10 years, and it only does about 5000 miles per year. It's cheap to insure and service and ULEZ compliant, so there's very little economical case to change it.

Basically we'll keep running it until circumstances change that demand something else - either we're doing more mileage or the car becomes more trouble than it's worth.

When it comes to change I'll be looking for a similar size car with a 250+ mile range, and around 3 years old. I'm starting to see a few cars meeting this criteria sub £15k now.

 

[old dog new tricks]

You're not the only one in that situation. My next car will almost certainly be an EV, but currently I have a 13 year old Golf that I've had for 10 years, and it only does about 5000 miles per year. It's cheap to insure and service and ULEZ compliant, so there's very little economical case to change it.

Basically we'll keep running it until circumstances change that demand something else - either we're doing more mileage or the car becomes more trouble than it's worth.

When it comes to change I'll be looking for a similar size car with a 250+ mile range, and around 3 years old. I'm starting to see a few cars meeting this criteria sub £15k now.

Pretty much my criteria as well not fussed about the 3 year thing as most car last for years now, the range for me has to be in 200 mile real world or just not worth it. Mileage is an issue for me I try to keep below 50k as as i do 15k a year and means can keep for 4 years before it needs major money ie cambelts etc.

I might be a year or 2 too early but the price gap for me just now is just too much the sharp rise in used cars in last few years has priced me out the game yet my trade in figure is miles off market value but that how stealers make money eh.

To meet that criteria for an EV is out of my budget as the PCP costs for EVs are greater than diesel due the higher depreciation, basically as EVs are moving at such pace it renders the older tech worthless in comparison

 

[Chippy_Tea]

I just plug it in whenever I'm home, default charge is to 70%, change it to something higher if I think I need it.
You can fast charge to greater than 80% but the car will slow the charge as it get closer to 100% so not relay fast charging for the last 10-15% or so.

I wasn't aware you can charge at whatever rate you like how does that work?

 

[Brew_DD2]

I wasn't aware you can charge at whatever rate you like how does that work?

You can have a target percentage, and set a start time and end time.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

You can have a target percentage, and set a start time and end time.

Thanks.

 

[AlBrew]

I wasn't aware you can charge at whatever rate you like how does that work?

As well as setting a charge level you can also set a charge rate in Amps, incase you want to charge more than 1 car at a time maybe and want to balance the load I'm guessing.

 

[Graz]

I tend to refuel my car when it gets between a quarter and empty I don't like to go too low as you don't know what **** is sloshing about in the bottom of the tank

Ahh, that old chestnut. You do know that the pickup for the fuel pump is located right at the bottom of the tank where all the supposed "crud" is sloshing about. There's little to no debris in the fuel out of the forecourt pumps and cars have fuel filters anyway just in case and these are changed at periodic service intervals.

That said nobody likes driving around on vapour and if you run out of fuel on a diesel then you can't just put fuel in a start it again, the fuel system needs to be purged of air which you might need someone to do for you. So yeah, most of us invariably fill up when it gets between 1/4 and Empty.