Electric cars.

[rclarke]

The problem with that is trying to find the expert that is telling the truth

I usually look for the ones honestly pointing out the problems, not selling solutions, not that's there's anything inherently wrong with solutions, the lord knows we need them. Its just that there's slightly less chance that they have been compromised by commercial interests.

Upton Sinclair — 'It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.'

Returning to the point about electricity being used to refine oil, you have to look at the total value at what that returns, and it's not just petroleum and diesel fuel, it's LPG (butane, propane) aviation fuel, tar for road surfacing, lubricants, short chain carbon compounds for pharmaceuticals etc etc etc. List is very lengthy and worth far more than the electrical energy that goes in to it. Without oil, there is no civilization, at least not the kind you and I imagine when we use that word.

Yes, an unlimited supply of clean energy could theoretically replace some of those with synthetics, but it simply not commercially viable to do so, we've been promised nuclear energy too cheap to meter since the 1930s, but it never materialised, and it likely never will. The renewable infrastructure that we pin our hopes on to power the electrical economy will become increasingly expensive as the massive subsidies from oil and gas wind down, and our ability to replace, repair and maintain them my become increasingly fraught. Most who assume the an electrical economy can power itself hasn't run the numbers. They are, as Nate puts it 'Energy Blind'


Now the electricity that is used to refine those products provides far more value to the economy (and thus props it up) than it would moving one to five 100kg humans around (usually one though) in a 2000kg capsule. Far better to move those humans around on one to five 18kg ebikes, or on trains and buses. Or better yet, get them to self propel on foot or bike and save the energy for what we can't do ourselves. If single occupant accounts for <5% of am EVs weight, 95% of the energy is moving the car itself. This is why I think ebikes technically, EVs will be a very big thing, as the vehicle weighs less than the payload. Ultra light EVs have potential, but still make less sense in energy scarcity scenarios than ebikes.

 

[Justin Dean]

How it's automotive power is delivered hardly affects your apparent dislike to it's suspension and seat engineering.
Or do the electrons zipping about move the car in an uncomfortable way?

As for this energy crisis, let's just read that post again.
4.5kw of electric to produce a gallon of fuel. Electric price goes up then so does petrol.

And yes the battery is heavy, but you only use it once for the cars entire life. A tank of petrol is lighter, but the 3000 gallons of petrol a typical car burns through in its life isn't
And 3000 gallons of burnt petrol isn't recyclable

And one last nugget for you. Petroleum refinement uses more cobalt as a sulphur removal catalyst than all EVs worldwide by a large factor
And EV batteries still account for a very small percentage of global battery manufacturing - mobiles, laptops and tablets are by far the biggest market.

Again, not the drive. In the seat I was all over the place it was uncomfortable for me.

 

[Justin Dean]

How it's automotive power is delivered hardly affects your apparent dislike to it's suspension and seat engineering.
Or do the electrons zipping about move the car in an uncomfortable way?

As for this energy crisis, let's just read that post again.
4.5kw of electric to produce a gallon of fuel. Electric price goes up then so does petrol.

And yes the battery is heavy, but you only use it once for the cars entire life. A tank of petrol is lighter, but the 3000 gallons of petrol a typical car burns through in its life isn't
And 3000 gallons of burnt petrol isn't recyclable

And one last nugget for you. Petroleum refinement uses more cobalt as a sulphur removal catalyst than all EVs worldwide by a large factor
And EV batteries still account for a very small percentage of global battery manufacturing - mobiles, laptops and tablets are by far the biggest market.

How it's automotive power is delivered hardly affects your apparent dislike to it's suspension and seat engineering.
Or do the electrons zipping about move the car in an uncomfortable way?

As for this energy crisis, let's just read that post again.
4.5kw of electric to produce a gallon of fuel. Electric price goes up then so does petrol.

And yes the battery is heavy, but you only use it once for the cars entire life. A tank of petrol is lighter, but the 3000 gallons of petrol a typical car burns through in its life isn't
And 3000 gallons of burnt petrol isn't recyclable

And one last nugget for you. Petroleum refinement uses more cobalt as a sulphur removal catalyst than all EVs worldwide by a large factor
And EV batteries still account for a very small percentage of global battery manufacturing - mobiles, laptops and tablets are by far the biggest market.

Not sure where you are going with this. Not at all what I was talking about but ok

 

[Chippy_Tea]

Great news for the unemployed in Somerset.


The UK is set to win a battle with Spain to host a multi-billion-pound electric car battery plant in Somerset, the BBC understands

The boss of Jaguar Land Rover-owner Tata is expected to fly to London next week to finalise the deal.
Some in the car industry have described the plant as the most significant investment in UK automotive since Nissan came to Britain in the 1980s.
Tata's chairman is scheduled to meet the prime minister mid-next week.
Sources familiar with the matter say that although the deal has yet to be signed, engagement has moved from negotiations to drafting and choreography of how the landmark agreement will be presented.
Up to 9,000 jobs would be created at the Bridgwater site, close to the M5.
The UK government has acknowledged the urgent need for electric vehicle battery manufacturing in the UK to secure the future of the car industry.
The country's automotive sector employs up to 800,000 people directly and in the supply chain.
When pressed on the subject last week, Chancellor Jeremy Hunt told the BBC to "watch this space".
Tata was considering another site in Spain and the expected decision to choose Somerset will be presented as a major achievement for the UK government.
The government has been criticised for lacking a clear industrial strategy and falling behind the US and EU in attracting investment.
Last week, one of the world's biggest carmakers, Stellantis, warned it may have to close UK factories if the government does not renegotiate the Brexit deal. The firm, which owns Vauxhall, Peugeot, Citroen and Fiat, had committed to making electric cars in the UK but told the BBC this was under threat.
In the case of Tata's new plant, the UK's expected success has not been easily or cheaply won.
The government has said that while it does not recognise a figure of £500m in reported subsidies, they concede that it is in the hundreds of millions of pounds.

This would take the form of cash grants, energy subsidies and other training and research funding.
India's Tata has extensive steel interests in the UK including the Port Talbot plant in South Wales and the government will also offer around £300m to subsidise, upgrade, and decarbonise those operations.
Along with additional energy discounts, it will bring the total incentive package to Tata close to £800m.
Government sources conceded that while the two investments will not be announced at the same time, the two projects are linked.
The Somerset site's access to power, a skilled UK automotive workforce and the British heritage of Jaguar Land Rover's brands are also cited as helping the UK bid.
Although the price tag will be seen as high, the UK is reluctantly involved in an international subsidy war which has been dramatically escalated by the US Inflation Reduction Act - a piece of legislation offering $370bn (£299bn) in sweeteners to companies prepared to locate production and supply chains in the US.
The EU is preparing its own package in response.
Some industry insiders hope that the Tata battery investment will open the door to further battery investments in the UK, which currently only has one plant in operation next to Nissan's Sunderland factory, and one barely on the drawing board in Northumberland.
By contrast the EU has 35 plants open, under construction or planned.
Number 10 said it did not comment on commercially sensitive matters.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-65698529

 

[MashBag]

Building dedicated nuclear plants to electrolyse water into hydrogen which can power inexpensive ICE vehicles, heat homes, brew beer etc.. would deliver the desired result with minimal disruption to people's lives - or their pockets.

The future needs a mix of power, probably more localised and will include a lot of solar. It is cheap, portable and easy. Solar will drive the price on energy down.

Nuclear I agree, with but also has its problems. Equally hydrogen is going to struggle (storage pressure is huge and at 1 molecule (H1) leaks on a epic scale.

The real issue is humans use to much power.

 

[jof]

The real issue is humans use to much power.

It also world population, but for some reason the press are not allowed to talk about that.

Especially as population growth would less than replacement level in most 1st world countries without immigration, yet capitalism demands we import more population for the continued growth of the economy.

I would much rather government's switched to a more 'permaculture' mindset of how can we co exist with nature long term

 

[Brew_DD2]

It also world population, but for some reason the press are not allowed to talk about that.

Especially as population growth would less than replacement level in most 1st world countries without immigration, yet capitalism demands we import more population for the continued growth of the economy.

I would much rather government's switched to a more 'permaculture' mindset of how can we co exist with nature long term

World population is due to peak in the coming decades. That issue will resolve itself.

 

[Rugby Fan.]

Car Sharing (like those annoying scooters) in cities is the way to go. Most people in cities have their car doing nothing but depreciating in value and costing maintenance/tax/insurance for over 90% of its life.

For the 2 weeks of summer you want a car for the lake district just rent one. Still a hell of a lot cheaper than owning one.

Don't let perfect be the enemy of good.

EVs can also be a great second family car that's only used for short journeys (which is where EVs excel).

Feels like EVs have become part of this stupid culture war

 

[jof]

Car Sharing (like those annoying scooters) in cities is the way to go. Most people in cities have their car doing nothing but depreciating in value and costing maintenance/tax/insurance for over 90% of its life.

For the 2 weeks of summer you want a car for the lake district just rent one. Still a hell of a lot cheaper than owning one.

Don't let perfect be the enemy of good.

EVs can also be a great second family car that's only used for short journeys (which is where EVs excel).

Feels like EVs have become part of this stupid culture war

This is all true.
As a 2 car house with 4 drivers, we could easily adapt to one to do shorter trips.
But cost with young adults would be insuring them on both cars, or we would regress to ferrying them on long journeys.
Insurers need to wise up to family car pools as so many youngsters can't afford to move out

 

[Rugby Fan.]

Insurers need to wise up to family car pools as so many youngsters can't afford to move out

Insurers do stats. Stats are based on large numbers and will never take your individual situation into account as an actuary's time would cost the premium silly money.

Being a named driver as opposed to the main driver is not so expensive. That'll work for car pools.

 

[Rodcx500z]

Why do i need a car at 70 years of age, ffs it ain't hard to figure, i could use public transport how would i get from the bus station to home with 5 bags of shopping easy get a taxi they cost an arm and a leg, ok order shopping on line and get all the **** they don't want, i like to see what i am buying, i worked hard for what we have i don't want to sit and veggitate at home pottering round the garden' i like to go places take the doggie out go on holiday when we please just like when we were younger or will us oldie's just be cast into the wilderness

 

[pilgrimhudd]

Why do i need a car at 70 years of age, ffs it ain't hard to figure, i could use public transport how would i get from the bus station to home with 5 bags of shopping easy get a taxi they cost an arm and a leg, ok order shopping on line and get all the **** they don't want, i like to see what i am buying, i worked hard for what we have i don't want to sit and veggitate at home pottering round the garden' i like to go places take the doggie out go on holiday when we please just like when we were younger or will us oldie's just be cast into the wilderness

Just buy less in the shop but go more often if you struggle to carry it all, being retired you've got f#ck all else to do.

 

[Rodcx500z]

Just buy less in the shop but go more often if you struggle to carry it all, being retired you've got f#ck all else to do.

I will take this in the spirit i think it is meant, in the meantime i will carry in our little 1.0L gas guzzler

 

[pilgrimhudd]

I will take this in the spirit i think it is meant, in the meantime i will carry in our little 1.0L gas guzzler

Definitely meant as gentle ribbing rod.

 

[jof]

Definitely meant as gentle ribbing rod.

Most of the 70 yr olds I know are rushing around doing child care for grandkids or voluntary work.

They tell me they are busier now than when they worked & observed that those who are not active go into rapid decline

 

[Rodcx500z]

Definitely meant as gentle ribbing rod.

I thought so have a nice weekend

 

[Chippy_Tea]

how would i get from the bus station to home with 5 bags of shopping

 

[Chippy_Tea]

i could use public transport how would i get from the bus station

If i was to use public transport to get to the next town where the large supermarkets are it would be a total PITA as i live a long way from the bus station and at the other end there is a long walk from the drop off point to the supermarket there is no way i would carry a monthly shop, we have used online shopping but SWMBO likes to see what she is buying so we do the once a month big shop.
My next car will be a hybrid so i will be doing my bit for the environment in a small way and getting 70+ MPG, as i have said i would run a full EV but have no means of charging at home.

 

[MashBag]

I will take this in the spirit i think it is meant, in the meantime i will carry in our little 1.0L gas guzzler

Rod, you have this wrong mate, get a Mustang (we oldies can afford the insurance ) roar down to the shops, get the shopping done quicker so you can spend more time with the dog . You can also make a special trip to the garden centre to purchase a tree. Plant it somewhere random to help the planet and offset the mustang. Sorted

Have a good weekend buddy.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

First Ford, now GM have teamed up with Tesla.
Its charging network is quickly becoming the industry standard. Of course, it took a decade to get here.