Electric cars.

[Leon103]

I probably didn’t explain myself properly. I was responding to the fact most people would be charging off peak, which is currently at night, when there is usually little wind and always no sun shining.

So tye wind doesn't blow at night?

 

[Benfleet Brewery]

Ah, I see. Apologies. That’s where battery storage comes in, some but not all from old EV’s, and the use of tidal/wave power. It’s also why nuclear will be some part of a zero carbon future if we ever see one.

The Naked Scientist did a really good series of features on renewable energy a couple of months back which covered a different technology each week for a month or so,

Yes, I agree that nuclear will have to play a big part in any push towards clean air. It’s just a shame taking these steps to mitigate our impact of climate change will also lumber future generations with the task of dealing with our nuclear waste.

 

[Benfleet Brewery]

So tye wind doesn't blow at night

My comment assumed less wind energy was generated at night as it was generally less windy. I used to go night fishing every weekend and, regardless of how windy it had been during the day, it always dropped at night. It appears I am completely wrong, a quick google seems to suggest most wind energy in the UK is actually generated at night. I stand corrected on that. Defo no Sun at night though

 

[Rodcx500z]

Never mind the wind what about the water, anybody know how many litres of water is needed to produce 1 ton of lithium, 2.2 million litres that is mind blowing, water probably the most precious comodity on the planet being wasted like that is sheer stupidity the more you look and dig these cars are not green at all far from it

 

[Benfleet Brewery]

Never mind the wind what about the water, anybody know how many litres of water is needed to produce 1 ton of lithium, 2.2 million litres that is mind blowing, water probably the most precious comodity on the planet being wasted like that is sheer stupidity the more you look and dig these cars are not green at all far from it

I may be putting my foot in it again here without doing any research but it is my understanding that water doesn’t just disappear after it’s used. Its an infinite resourse. All water, no matter what we do with it, will eventually evaporate into the air and come back down as rain, somewhere.

 

[Stu's Brews]

Never mind the wind what about the water, anybody know how many litres of water is needed to produce 1 ton of lithium, 2.2 million litres that is mind blowing, water probably the most precious comodity on the planet being wasted like that is sheer stupidity the more you look and dig these cars are not green at all far from it

That's definitely one of the unfortunate realities of electric vehicles.

There is very much a perception that they are 'green' because nothing comes out of an exhaust. But the reality is there is an awful lot of energy/raw material usage and pollution in the supply chain.

However, that isn't really any different to the manufacturing of internal combustion engine vehicles. Which is why the best solution is for their to be fewer cars on the road.

The process for producing lithium-ion batteries will improve as we understand the technology better but it's a long way from perfect. Recycling of used batteries along with improved battery lifetimes will have a big role to play in this.

 

[Rodcx500z]

I may be putting my foot in it again here without doing any research but it is my understanding that water doesn’t just disappear after it’s used. Its an infinite resourse. All water, no matter what we do with it, will eventually evaporate into the air and come back down as rain, somewhere.

That is a fair point which i to have looked at

 

[Stu's Brews]

I may be putting my foot in it again here without doing any research but it is my understanding that water doesn’t just disappear after it’s used. Its an infinite resourse. All water, no matter what we do with it, will eventually evaporate into the air and come back down as rain, somewhere.

This is mostly true. Water is the one thing that pretty much recycles constantly.

Ironically it is pretty much the exact same problem with water usage in breweries. It's not that the water is lost it's that it takes a lot of energy to make that volume of water usable. Whether that be in physically pumping it around, heating/cooling it or treating it before/after use.

 

[Rodcx500z]

That's definitely one of the unfortunate realities of electric vehicles.

There is very much a perception that they are 'green' because nothing comes out of an exhaust. But the reality is there is an awful lot of energy/raw material usage and pollution in the supply chain.

However, that isn't really any different to the manufacturing of internal combustion engine vehicles. Which is why the best solution is for their to be fewer cars on the road.

The process for producing lithium-ion batteries will improve as we understand the technology better but it's a long way from perfect. Recycling of used batteries along with improved battery lifetimes will have a big role to play in this.

I agree the only green bit is what comes out the back, i am still not convinced it's the way to go i am leaning more to hydrogen which is a more expensive option at the moment but will catch up, i am sure i read not long back about a place in Holland were they using an old gas network with hydrogen to power homes

 

[Alastair70]

Also, the discussion should be about electric vs fossil, not how bad one statistic about one of the modalities sound.
Half a barrel of water is required to refine one barrel of crude oil. An average car consumes 12 US barrels worth of crude per year. Assuming 10 year life span of a car you get 3600L. Then you have to factor in the diesel consumed transporting the crude oil to the refinery and then to your local petrol station.
With regards to lithium, battery production is also a global industry and the distance lithium travels from the mine to finished battery is 70k miles (according to a patient of mine involved in the industry).
Neither industry is helping the planet, the discussion needs to be about how best to meet societal needs.

 

[Stu's Brews]

I agree the only green bit is what comes out the back, i am still not convinced it's the way to go i am leaning more to hydrogen which is a more expensive option at the moment but will catch up, i am sure i read not long back about a place in Holland were they using an old gas network with hydrogen to power homes

Hydrogen is definitely an interesting option and one that is being widely explored within the industry.

The main challenge is getting the hydrogen itself into a form that can be readily and safely put in a fuel tank. It's currently a very energy (and as a result cost) expensive process.

The likelihood is that hydrogen will be the solution for long-haul transportation (e.g. trucks) and electric will be for the shorter journeys (e.g. those predominantly made in cars). With synthetic fuels for internal combustion engines potentially still having a role somewhere.

Interestingly, another problem that hasn't been mentioned is the need for vehicles to be more efficient irrespective of what fuel source they use. The current trend for SUVs is completely the wrong solution, their sheer size and mass makes them much less efficient than smaller vehicles. Particularly true when there is only one person in them as any argument about more space inside (which is debatable anyway) becomes completely irrelevant.

 

[Leon103]

Never mind the wind what about the water, anybody know how many litres of water is needed to produce 1 ton of lithium, 2.2 million litres that is mind blowing, water probably the most precious comodity on the planet being wasted like that is sheer stupidity the more you look and dig these cars are not green at all far from it

I thought we had issues with flooding. Melting ice caps etc.

 

[Rodcx500z]

Agree on suv's, the problem lie's in how do you get a family of four away for a weekend in the country in a smaller car, the misses and i have a 1L nissan juke which is very fuel ifficient and perfect for us and the dog, if we were to get an ev it would entail losing the shed having double gates installed to just charge it and the cost of the car itself i am 70 next year so it is a big no no for us,

 

[Rodcx500z]

I thought we had issues with flooding. Melting ice caps etc.

Well they could run a pipeline from antarctica to south America and use that job done and all problems sorted

 

[Stu's Brews]

Agree on suv's, the problem lie's in how do you get a family of four away for a weekend in the country in a smaller car, the misses and i have a 1L nissan juke which is very fuel ifficient and perfect for us and the dog, if we were to get an ev it would entail losing the shed having double gates installed to just charge it and the cost of the car itself i am 70 next year so it is a big no no for us,

The most basic counter argument is that families survived for years without SUVs by using saloon, estate or even hatchback vehicles.

But in a more reasoned argument, it's actually a bit of a fallacy that there is significantly more room in SUVs than there is in an equivalent saloon or estate.

They appear big from the outside but the interior compartments aren't all that much different. That's especially true in the case of 'crossover' SUVs which are essentially saloons or hatchbacks that have been put on stilts.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

i do not dispute that the batteries last longer than original EV's but I was talking about the people and there are a lot the run 10 year old cars plus as a second car to get to work which is at the possible end of a lot of the battery cars

The Leaf i posted about earlier is 9 years old and has only lost one bar of its battery condition meter if you look on auto trader thre are lots of there cars and the majority still have a lot of battery life left, as has been said in the thread they will last 100,000 to 200,000 miles

The 2013 leaf has covered 43,000 mile and has only lost one bar.

How long do electric car batteries last?​

The hundreds of gently topped-up cells inside an EV battery mean that each battery pack is expected to retain its charging-discharging capacity from 100,000 to 200,000 miles. Manufacturers are so confident of the battery’s road use that most electric cars come with an extended warranty of eight years, or 100,000 miles.

The battery will outlive the car...

“The battery will outlive the car,” says Graeme Cooper confidently. “Today, most EV batteries have a life expectancy of 15 to 20 years within the car – and a second life beyond.”

It’s also worth noting that EV battery technology is still evolving, so as tech develops we expect batteries’ lifespan to increase – as well as becoming cheaper, smaller and even lighter.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

Maybe worth adding to the debate (at the risk of starting a riot ) that the best solution is for everyone to use cars less.

To abb to the post below -

The trouble is for a lot of us public transport is not convenient we live in a rural area and busses don't go to a lot of areas people work and at the timers they need to travel, my son uses the bus to go to work in the next town we have lost count of the of times it hasn't turned up because they haven't got enough drivers fortunately the company he works for know the situation so it doesn't go down as bad timekeeping.

Completely agree that in a lot of cases we don't currently have good enough infrastructure.
Public transport is far too expensive. A lot of the time it is less convenient and more expensive than taking the car. That has to change if people are going to use it more regularly.

 

[Stu's Brews]

The trouble is for a lot of us public transport is not convenient we live in a rural area and busses don't go to a lot of areas people work and at the timers they need to travel, my son uses the bus to go to work in the next town we have lost count of the of times it doesn't turn up because they haven't got enough drivers fortunately the company he works for now the situation so it doesn't go down as bad timekeeping.

100% agree. We have two cars and I'd love for us to be able to get rid of one of them but it's not practical with the current lack of public transport to where my girlfriend works.

The onus is very much on the government, councils, etc. to provide better services so that it becomes a viable option instead of personal vehicles.

 

[Benfleet Brewery]

To put everything into perspective, and I posted this in the strange facts thread previously, there are over 50,000 merchant ship in our oceans, the 16 biggest of these produce more CO2 emissions and the biggest 17 more sulphur emissions than all the worlds petrol and diesel cars!
A seagoing container ship is as polluting as 50 million cars.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

Never mind the wind what about the water,

They have been discussing the Morecambe Bay barrage for a few years

,

.

Calls to build the barrage have intensified as the energy crisis deepens, and the search for renewable energy sources becomes more pressing.

The past week has seen the tidal barrage discussed at the highest levels of government, with both Simon Fell MP and Tim Farron MP advocating the project, which, as well as providing eight million megawatt hours of power annually - enough for two million homes, would enable drivers to travel across the bay from Barrow to Lancashire.

Ulverston First commented: "Brilliant that Tim Farron and Simon Fell are continuing to push for the Government to support this initiative.

"In addition to providing predictable emission-free power, a tidal barrage and highway across Morecambe Bay and the Duddon will ease traffic on the A590, and provide protection for important wildlife areas of Morecambe Bay which will disappear when sea levels rise due to global warming.

"The output from the tidal power gateway across Morecambe Bay and the Duddon Estuary would provide two per cent of the UK's power requirement."
Robert Corran agreed, but warned of a potential drawback:

Full article - 'Build it to the door of Primark' - Divided opinion in bay barrage debate