Electric cars.

[Leon103]

So you tell me how most people and certainly second jobs are going to afford and pay for a EV. do bear in mind that a EV that is 6 years plus old will very shortly require a new battery at £000's so they will not be viable for majority of general workers or the second job workers where they require 2 cars.
Just a thought

They will become more affordable just like when the first cars were introduced.

 

[Alastair70]

So you tell me how most people and certainly second jobs are going to afford and pay for a EV. do bear in mind that a EV that is 6 years plus old will very shortly require a new battery at £000's so they will not be viable for majority of general workers or the second job workers where they require 2 cars.
Just a thought

The Citreon Ami is the cheapest new car on the road at the minute, but I can only imagine it appealing to Noddy. The MG4 EV is probably the best cheap EV at the minute and costs start at around £25k.
When you factor in the hugely lower running and servicing costs the financials are a no brainier at todays prices. Also, as the EV market share increases, the headline cost gap is going to close.

By way of illustration, I was saving £200 a month on fuel charges pre-solar install and total service costs to date over 2 1/2 years and 60k miles are around the £300 mark. One set of new tyres cost just over £900-odd from memory, but I‘ve got the performance Model 3, a more sensible purchase would have come fitted with cheaper shoes.

And as chippy has said, the battery thing is one of those myths that will probably never die.

 

[Robin54]

The Citreon Ami is the cheapest new car on the road at the minute, but I can only imagine it appealing to Noddy. The MG4 EV is probably the best cheap EV at the minute and costs start at around £25k.
When you factor in the hugely lower running and servicing costs the financials are a no brainier at todays prices. Also, as the EV market share increases, the headline cost gap is going to close.

By way of illustration, I was saving £200 a month on fuel charges pre-solar install and total service costs to date over 2 1/2 years and 60k miles are around the £300 mark. One set of new tyres cost just over £900-odd from memory, but I‘ve got the performance Model 3, a more sensible purchase would have come fitted with cheaper shoes.

And as chippy has said, the battery thing is one of those myths that will probably never die.

Do we know what happens to expired batteries?

 

[Alastair70]

Do we know what happens to expired batteries?

Expired batteries are few and far between. Most get repurposed for solar storage and the likes. They can be recycled, but that’s unlikely to be to be needed on a large scale.

 

[Stu's Brews]

Lots of interesting discussion here.

Being 100% transparent, I work in the engineering division for a start-up company that develops electric vehicles.

There are a lot of truths and a lot of myths around electric vehicles both in terms of their purported benefits and disadvantages.

In terms of energy usage, they are considerably more efficient than internal combustion vehicles. They can also be charged with electricity that is generated from renewable sources rather than fossil fuels. And we're definitely not about to run out of electricity.

Electric vehicles are not 'zero emission' as some like to state. Obviously some of the electricity is generated from fossil fuels but additionally there are all sorts of challenges in the supply chain, particularly with some of the materials used in the batteries. However, in the main, their overall emissions impact is lower than an equivalent internal combustion engine vehicle.

Battery lifetimes are improving rapidly along with charging rates. We aren't all that far away from having vehicles that can be fully charged (0-100%) in sub-30 minutes with a 10-year battery life (which is comparable to the expected life of an internal combustion vehicle when it designed).

Battery energy density is improving too so we're getting larger range on a single charge. Eventually this will match what you can get on an average tank of petrol or diesel.

All that being said, do I believe electric vehicles are the sole answer for the future? No, I don't. I think we'll have a mix of electric and traditional internal combustion but with the latter using synthetic fuels rather than dead dinosaurs. Hydrogen fuel cells may also come into the mix but that technology still remains immature.

 

[The Baron]

i do not dispute that the batteries last longer than original EV's but I was talking about the people and there are a lot the run 10 year old cars plus as a second car to get to work which is at the possible end of a lot of the battery cars

 

[pilgrimhudd]

And the winds are getting stronger too!

Do you have a turbine alastair?

 

[Stu's Brews]

i do not dispute that the batteries last longer than original EV's but I was talking about the people and there are a lot the run 10 year old cars plus as a second car to get to work which is at the possible end of a lot of the battery cars

Completely agree that a lot of cars are used for more than 10 years but the sad reality is that nearly all vehicles (electric or internal combustion) are designed with the expectation that they will only last that long.

It's predominantly because you'd have to add so much additional cost and weight to strengthen components that it becomes infeasible to design them to last longer.

However, there is also an element of business strategy in this as you ultimately want people to come back and buy a new car rather than keep the same one for years and years.

Personally, I think it would be great if we could move towards a world where products (cars, phones, TVs, etc.) have a much longer life cycle as it would eliminate so much unnecessary waste.

Specifically talking electric vehicle batteries, there are often opportunities to replace old batteries with new ones but unfortunately the cost is quite high to do so at to the moment. That should hopefully change as the technology improves and we get better at recycling used batteries.

 

[Alastair70]

i do not dispute that the batteries last longer than original EV's but I was talking about the people and there are a lot the run 10 year old cars plus as a second car to get to work which is at the possible end of a lot of the battery cars

That used to be me, but they were 10yr old first cars, not second. All were bought because they were cheap, and all were money pits. Then I realised lease deals on new or nearly new worked out much better, and I wouldnt be asking the patients I’d just seen in clinic half an hour earlier to help me jump start my car (that was a particular low point).

 

[Alastair70]

Do you have a turbine alastair?

Not yet, if I want more production I’ll add a couple more panels. But I’m hoping that my mileage will wind down in the next few years as I work less and that won’t be needed.

 

[pilgrimhudd]

All the new builds round here have panels i am not sure if it's a local thing or is now the law.

Must be local, Cornwall council has no backbone whatsoever so I can't imagine they would enforce anything.

 

[Agentgonzo]

It was a joke hence the mention of @Grunge our once resident and very vocal climate change denier.

Oh. I see. With the clocks going back, we will also lose an hour's daylight for the solar panels as well.

 

[pilgrimhudd]

Not yet, if I want more production I’ll add a couple more panels. But I’m hoping that my mileage will wind down in the next few years as I work less and that won’t be needed.

Ahh thats a shame, i've been looking around for a small turbine to stick in the paddock and was lookign for some insider info, at the mo we're saving for solar panels for the spring but i'd like something to supplement the panels and take advantage of my very windy position!

 

[Stu's Brews]

Maybe worth adding to the debate (at the risk of starting a riot ) that the best solution is for everyone to use cars less.

Whether that's walking, cycling, public transport or shared car usage it would all make a much bigger difference than choosing between internal combustion and electric vehicles.

 

[Rodcx500z]

Take a bus yeah

 

[An Ankoù]

i do not dispute that the batteries last longer than original EV's but I was talking about the people and there are a lot the run 10 year old cars plus as a second car to get to work which is at the possible end of a lot of the battery cars

Unless you're using Duracell batteries!

 

[Benfleet Brewery]

I’m doing 25,000 miles in an EV per year and generate the electricity for 20,000 of those miles with home solar. Regardless of what happens in the foreseeable future, the one thing I’m happy to bet on is that the sun will still shine and the wind will still blow

I probably didn’t explain myself properly. I was responding to the fact most people would be charging off peak, which is currently at night, when there is usually little wind and always no sun shining.

 

[dad_of_jon]

Maybe worth adding to the debate (at the risk of starting a riot ) that the best solution is for everyone to use cars less.

Whether that's walking, cycling, public transport or shared car usage it would all make a much bigger difference than choosing between internal combustion and electric vehicles.

Hmm, I use my car much less. Every other day or less rather than every day. If the weather is good I might be down to using a car 2 days a week if I can cycle instead. However, not everyone can do this in a full time job, with poor public transport options. Public transport has got far worse since in my area since covid. 50% of the time the train I want to take has been cancelled and there are now even cancellations of bus services.

The only way I'll consider public transport over personal transport is if it's free/cheaper or more convenient and for me ATM that's not happening.

I do have a few pubs I frequent and all of them are within cycling range and don't require riding on a road from 2 - 8 miles away but you can only have one or two drinks and in the darker months a couple of the pubs are only doable on the weekend when they open earlier than 4. I don't use the car at all for any journeys less than 10 mins by car.

 

[Alastair70]

I probably didn’t explain myself properly. I was responding to the fact most people would be charging off peak, which is currently at night, when there is usually little wind and always no sun shining.

Ah, I see. Apologies. That’s where battery storage comes in, some but not all from old EV’s, and the use of tidal/wave power. It’s also why nuclear will be some part of a zero carbon future if we ever see one.

The Naked Scientist did a really good series of features on renewable energy a couple of months back which covered a different technology each week for a month or so,

 

[Stu's Brews]

Hmm, I use my car much less. Every other day or less rather than every day. If the weather is good I might be down to using a car 2 days a week if I can cycle instead. However, not everyone can do this in a full time job, with poor public transport options. Public transport has got far worse since in my area since covid. 50% of the time the train I want to take has been cancelled and there are now even cancellations of bus services.

The only way I'll consider public transport over personal transport is if it's free/cheaper or more convenient and for me ATM that's not happening.

I do have a few pubs I frequent and all of them are within cycling range and don't require riding on a road from 2 - 8 miles away but you can only have one or two drinks and in the darker months a couple of the pubs are only doable on the weekend when they open earlier than 4. I don't use the car at all for any journeys less than 10 mins by car.

Completely agree that in a lot of cases we don't currently have good enough infrastructure.

Public transport is far too expensive. A lot of the time it is less convenient and more expensive than taking the car. That has to change if people are going to use it more regularly.

Cycling infrastructure is woeful. We are so far behind countries like the Netherlands in that regard. Both in terms of cycle routes but also facilities at destinations (secure bike parking, lockers, showers, etc.).

I also don't expect people to stop using cars entirely as that wouldn't be practical. However, when you consider ~70% of all journeys are less than 5 miles in distance, and that ~60% (National Travel Survey) of those are done by car then there is still a huge opportunity for reducing car usage. Those short journeys are the ones we should be converting into walking, cycling and public transport but we need the infrastructure to support it.