Daft question on water profile and FG

[hoppyscotty]

So the 'accepted' water profile for a hoppy beer like a NEIPA seems to be one with a high Chloride content. But high chloride water profile accentuates maltiness and malt sweetness. high Sulphate water profile accentuates the perception of hops.

I thought one of the main goals of a NEIPA is to push the malt contribution to the back and bring forward the impact and flavour of the hops. So why is the accepted water profile for a NEIPA one that accentuates malt and sweetness? I would have thought that is the opposite of what you want to do.

I know that a high chloride water profile also accentuates mouthfeel, but surely if you're sticking a load of oats and wheat I there then there and a final gravity on the higher side then there should be enough mouthfeel contribution from that?

Anyone experimented with this to see if the other water profile works best?

I have found a Brulosophy Experiment on just this topic but the results were 'inconclusive'!

Another question is around the 'rule' that adding sugar dries out the beer. Not sure what this actually means...I understand that the body of the beer depends on your FG. So low FG results in a dryer beer with a thinner mouthfeel, and a higher FG results in a sweeter beer with a fuller richer mouthfeel. So in my mind if you have two different beers with the same FG then they should have the same body and level of dryness. If you add sugar then as long as that sugar is 100% fermentable then you should end up at the same FG....you are boosting gravity when you add the sugar over and above that from the malt, but if all of that is fermented then you just end up at the same FG you would have ended up at if you didn't add the sugar, so same body and level of dryness, but higher ABV. And if the sugar you add is not 100% fermentable then you will end up at a higher FG increase the body and mouthfeel. Maybe I've got the definition of dryness wrong and muddled it up with mouthfeel and body?

 

[Sadfield]

1) I'd say Sulphate enhances bitterness, which accentuates the perception of hoppiness. NIEPA brewers don't want bitterness, so avoid sulphate and have to use higher late and post fermentation hopping rates to compensate.

2) Replacing malt with simple sugars is what dries a beer out, diluting the amount of unfermermentables that remains after . You could have the same OG, but end up with less maltose and maltotriose remaining in the beer.

 

[dad_of_jon]

So the 'accepted' water profile for a hoppy beer like a NEIPA seems to be one with a high Chloride content. But high chloride water profile accentuates maltiness and malt sweetness. high Sulphate water profile accentuates the perception of hops.

I thought one of the main goals of a NEIPA is to push the malt contribution to the back and bring forward the impact and flavour of the hops. So why is the accepted water profile for a NEIPA one that accentuates malt and sweetness? I would have thought that is the opposite of what you want to do.

I know that a high chloride water profile also accentuates mouthfeel, but surely if you're sticking a load of oats and wheat I there then there and a final gravity on the higher side then there should be enough mouthfeel contribution from that?

Anyone experimented with this to see if the other water profile works best?

I have found a Brulosophy Experiment on just this topic but the results were 'inconclusive'!

Another question is around the 'rule' that adding sugar dries out the beer. Not sure what this actually means...I understand that the body of the beer depends on your FG. So low FG results in a dryer beer with a thinner mouthfeel, and a higher FG results in a sweeter beer with a fuller richer mouthfeel. So in my mind if you have two different beers with the same FG then they should have the same body and level of dryness. If you add sugar then as long as that sugar is 100% fermentable then you should end up at the same FG....you are boosting gravity when you add the sugar over and above that from the malt, but if all of that is fermented then you just end up at the same FG you would have ended up at if you didn't add the sugar, so same body and level of dryness, but higher ABV. And if the sugar you add is not 100% fermentable then you will end up at a higher FG increase the body and mouthfeel. Maybe I've got the definition of dryness wrong and muddled it up with mouthfeel and body?

Interesting

I'm making a dipa today and I'm toying with the idea of adding some calcium chloride but need to check if it's a good idea and if so how much. As I don't want the faff of getting my tap water analysed but I do have figures from welsh water. I treat with 1/2 a campden tablet and the last beer was pretty good.

Im in that pontoon or 21 moment where i have 16 or 17 which can be a winning hand but if I twist I may go bust.

A campden tablet removes chlorine from the water so should I be re-adding chloride?

 

[dad_of_jon]

1) I'd say Sulphate enhances bitterness, which accentuates the perception of hoppiness. NIEPA brewers don't want bitterness, so avoid sulphate and have to use higher late and post fermentation hopping rates to compensate.

Excellent

When I did add some gypsum to a dipa it took ages to condition out the burnt matches vibe I had. However subsequently that beer was better IMO than the follow up dipa which was drinkable much sooner. I suspect I have a low sulfur detection threshold. So now I need to decide how quick do I want to drink my dipas?

 

[Sadfield]

I'm making a dipa today and I'm toying with the idea of adding some calcium chloride

This might be useful.

https://beersmith.com/blog/2021/08/06/the-big-six-water-ions-and-water-chemistry-in-beer-brewing/

 

[dmtaylor]

I'm making a dipa today and I'm toying with the idea of adding some calcium chloride but need to check if it's a good idea and if so how much. As I don't want the faff of getting my tap water analysed but I do have figures from welsh water. I treat with 1/2 a campden tablet and the last beer was pretty good.

A campden tablet removes chlorine from the water so should I be re-adding chloride?

There are many kinds of chlorine ions: hypochlorite (bleach), chloramine (stabilized version), and chloride (table salt). These are all chemically totally different, and Campden removes only the first two but not the chloride.

If I were you, I would split your batch 2 or maybe even 3 ways after the boil, in the fermenters, adding extra calcium chloride in one fermenter, nothing in another, and maybe extra sulfate in another. Then taste them all blind at the end. My guess is that most people will not taste any difference reliably. And if so, then.... why fart around with extra salt additions at all.

 

[Sadfield]

Another homebrew club member did exactly that experiment, plus variations, with noticeable results, so I guess it depends on the ppm you're hitting.

 

[dad_of_jon]

So the 'accepted' water profile for a hoppy beer like a NEIPA seems to be one with a high Chloride content. But high chloride water profile accentuates maltiness and malt sweetness. high Sulphate water profile accentuates the perception of hops.

I thought one of the main goals of a NEIPA is to push the malt contribution to the back and bring forward the impact and flavour of the hops. So why is the accepted water profile for a NEIPA one that accentuates malt and sweetness? I would have thought that is the opposite of what you want to do.

I know that a high chloride water profile also accentuates mouthfeel, but surely if you're sticking a load of oats and wheat I there then there and a final gravity on the higher side then there should be enough mouthfeel contribution from that?

Anyone experimented with this to see if the other water profile works best?

I have found a Brulosophy Experiment on just this topic but the results were 'inconclusive'!

Another question is around the 'rule' that adding sugar dries out the beer. Not sure what this actually means...I understand that the body of the beer depends on your FG. So low FG results in a dryer beer with a thinner mouthfeel, and a higher FG results in a sweeter beer with a fuller richer mouthfeel. So in my mind if you have two different beers with the same FG then they should have the same body and level of dryness. If you add sugar then as long as that sugar is 100% fermentable then you should end up at the same FG....you are boosting gravity when you add the sugar over and above that from the malt, but if all of that is fermented then you just end up at the same FG you would have ended up at if you didn't add the sugar, so same body and level of dryness, but higher ABV. And if the sugar you add is not 100% fermentable then you will end up at a higher FG increase the body and mouthfeel. Maybe I've got the definition of dryness wrong and muddled it up with mouthfeel and body?

Interesting

I'm making a dipa today and I'm toying with the idea of adding some calcium chloride but need to check if it's a good idea and if so how much. As I don't want the faff of getting my tap water analysed but I do have figures from welsh water. I treat with 1/2 a campden tablet and the last beer was pretty good.

Im in that pontoon or 21 moment where i have 16 or 17 which can be a winning hand but if I twist I may go bust.

A campden removes chlorine from the water so aren't I just adding it back via calcium chloride?

NOTE: I decided to stick with last base recipe and change the dry hops instead. I know what they do

 

[dad_of_jon]

There are many kinds of chlorine ions: hypochlorite (bleach), chloramine (stabilized version), and chloride (table salt). These are all chemically totally different, and Campden removes only the first two but not the chloride.

If I were you, I would split your batch 2 or maybe even 3 ways after the boil, in the fermenters, adding extra calcium chloride in one fermenter, nothing in another, and maybe extra sulfate in another. Then taste them all blind at the end. My guess is that most people will not taste any difference reliably. And if so, then.... why fart around with extra salt additions at all.

Brilliant I've gone down the no farting route. Which if I had added more sulfate there would have be a lot more farting. Strike a match for gawd sake's level of farting - the bum trumpet is playing (think of soft cell the intro to torch).

 

[Northern_Brewer]

A campden removes chlorine from the water so aren't I just adding it back via calcium chloride?

No - because chlorine and chloride are different. One is used as a chemical weapon, one is used to make your chips taste better.

To give you an idea - think of the taste of the water in a swimming pool, versus the taste of the sea. That's the difference between chlorine and chloride.

And yes in theory you can turn one into the other, but it requires some really nasty chemicals or a big electric current. Neither of which you have in beer. So for beer purposes, they are completely different things.