Covid Passports

[Brew_DD2]

I think some are people are losing track of why they are looking to use passports it is because in my understanding is that people who have been vaccinated are deemed safe but if they allowed unvaccinated people to mix they would be a risk to other unvaccinated people and would pass it on /spread covid or the unvaccinated being at risk from vaccinated people who could still be carriers hence Vaccine passports. If I had not been vaccinated I would not want to be sat next to somebody who may be a risk to me.
By using the passports they will be able to open up venues that have suffered massive financial losses earlier albeit to a smaller amount of people but hopefully enough to keep them afloat

But those who aren't yet vaccinated aren't in the at risk groups. The chances of getting very ill from Covid if you're under-50 is very very low, and certainly doesn't not necessitate a pass for domestic usage.

 

[The Baron]

There are plenty of people under fifty who have died or had serious long covid so I look at them as a lower risk group in comparison to the older groups but still at risk

 

[Brew_DD2]

There are plenty of people under fifty who have died or had serious long covid so I look at them as a lower risk group in comparison to the older groups but still at risk

Quantify plenty? Obviously any death is tragic, but as a percentage of overall Covid deaths, it's very low.

https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/det...sitive_test_by_date_of_death_age_demographics

 

[The Baron]

These are recent stats regarding males who are more vulnerable to covid
This is from the Intensive Care National Audit and Research Centre
While most seriously-ill men in intensive care were in their 60s, around 15% were in their 50s and 8% in their 40s.
Thats 23% in my mind which is not a minimal risk of covid intensive care admissions

 

[Brewnaldo]

For those familiar with the fact that theres a Simpsons reference for absolutely everything, Vaccine Passports are Bear Patrol/Lisas tiger repelling rock. (Episode: Much Apu About Nothing for those not familiar with the canon)

 

[dbuchanan]

Absolute nonsense and it would appear Bojo has u-turned on it thankfully.

If theyve had the vaccine then what are people afraid of? If an individual is so genuinely scared of a virus that the vast majority of us dont even realise we’ve had, how do they manage to leave the house and why would they go to a pub to sample a harmful toxic substance given that they are obviously so afraid of their own shadow?

A passport is worthless- you could be negative, visit a supermarket and pick up a dose of covid after being coughed upon and then happily present yourself at a pub that evening. But if everyone who needs to be is vaccinated and those that dont need to be (i.e. the young and without existing conditions) are happy to let their immune system do what hundreds of thousands of years of evolution has prepared it for then a passport adds nothing but further waste of money, hassle and interference into our already over controlled and over surveilled lives.

The vaccine is not 100% effective. The behaviour of the uk public can’t be relied upon other than to be selfish and inconsiderate. An individual cannot choose whether they get it and who they pass it on to, mutations can form and finally there’s the question of can the nhs cope. Waiting lists for important treatments are now 18-24months. Compared to 18weeks in some trusts. Have a big car crash or accident and a hospital full of covid patients will delay your treatment. Don’t underestimate this. I know of back surgeons who have been unable to operate because the hospitals are full. You are being a little blasé I think a “passport” is a not unreasonable precaution despite its limitations as might compulsory testing at venues before entry.

 

[Brew_DD2]

The vaccine is not 100% effective.

It almost is. Certainly from preventing hospitalisations, which is what this is all about.

 

[The Baron]

The vaccine is not 100% effective. The behaviour of the uk public can’t be relied upon other than to be selfish and inconsiderate. An individual cannot choose whether they get it and who they pass it on to, mutations can form and finally there’s the question of can the nhs cope. Waiting lists for important treatments are now 18-24months. Compared to 18weeks in some trusts. Have a big car crash or accident and a hospital full of covid patients will delay your treatment. Don’t underestimate this. I know of back surgeons who have been unable to operate because the hospitals are full. You are being a little blasé I think a “passport” is a not unreasonable precaution despite its limitations as might compulsory testing at venues before entry. Oh and why are we not discussing beer that’s why I joined this form there’s enough of this ***** everywhere else.

Hi dbuchanan a lot of members do agree with you but unfortunately we do allow free speech in the snug section as do most forums as long as it is moderated to keep it on track and makesure nothing is said inflammatory or troll like.
I notice you are a newer member and if you go into your account setting you can change your preferences or ignore threads you do not wish to see. have a play and get the settings to suit what you want from the forum. I am sure once you have done this you can only see the threads you want

 

[Northern_Brewer]

But those who aren't yet vaccinated aren't in the at risk groups. The chances of getting very ill from Covid if you're under-50 is very very low, and certainly doesn't not necessitate a pass for domestic usage.

Around 10-20% of infections lead to long Covid, which you really don't want. And the more cases of Covid, the more opportunity for the virus to mutate. There seems to be something very worrying happening in Brazil, where it is completely out of control - since February young people are starting to die in much greater numbers than before, implying a variant that is 3+ times more deadly to 20-somethings. And don't forget the young have no automatic right to be safe from these things - in 1918 flu deaths peaked at the age of 28.

It almost is. Certainly from preventing hospitalisations, which is what this is all about.

It's actually about much more than that, but even if you take that narrow definition - we can't afford to go back to lockdowns every winter when a new variant emerges that breaks the current vaccine. The only way to protect the economy is to follow the example of Japan, South Korea etc and take tough decisions which get us rid of it. We're still at 10x the infection rate of last summer - and that infection rate was still not low enough to prevent the explosion of cases in the winter.

Look I completely understand why people think we can relax a bit now, with the vaccination programme going well and if they have personally been vaccinated. But in fact this is a really dangerous time, it's not the time to get sloppy. If you want to generate a variant that breaks the vaccine, then you need a big population of virus (ie lots of unvaccinated people) with the opportunity to meet lots of vaccinated people, particularly people who have only had one ***.

Does that sound anything like where we are now? In fact, I wonder if we've not already created a vaccine-breaking variant in Yorkshire - something doesn't feel quite right about the way cases are surging in places like Wetherby and Sheffield. But certainly the whole world should be worried about what's going on in Brazil, and Manaus in particular. There's estimates that Manaus was up to around 75% infected by October, which should have been enough for "herd immunity" - but all that happened was they had so much virus circulating that it created variants that broke the immunity given by natural infection and now Brazil seems to be facing a real disaster.

Nobody is safe until everyone is safe.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

The vaccine is not 100% effective. The behaviour of the uk public can’t be relied upon other than to be selfish and inconsiderate. An individual cannot choose whether they get it and who they pass it on to, mutations can form and finally there’s the question of can the nhs cope. Waiting lists for important treatments are now 18-24months. Compared to 18weeks in some trusts. Have a big car crash or accident and a hospital full of covid patients will delay your treatment. Don’t underestimate this. I know of back surgeons who have been unable to operate because the hospitals are full. You are being a little blasé I think a “passport” is a not unreasonable precaution despite its limitations as might compulsory testing at venues before entry.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

The vaccine is not 100% effective. The behaviour of the uk public can’t be relied upon other than to be selfish and inconsiderate. An individual cannot choose whether they get it and who they pass it on to, mutations can form and finally there’s the question of can the nhs cope. Waiting lists for important treatments are now 18-24months. Compared to 18weeks in some trusts. Have a big car crash or accident and a hospital full of covid patients will delay your treatment. Don’t underestimate this. I know of back surgeons who have been unable to operate because the hospitals are full. You are being a little blasé I think a “passport” is a not unreasonable precaution despite its limitations as might compulsory testing at venues before entry.

Exactly as i said 4 pages ago in reply to -

How is a vaccinated person safer in a pub that only allows vaccinated people in?

Its not about being in a pub full of vaccinated people its about being in a pub with non vaccinated people, having the vaccine doesn't make you immortal.

As it says below -

"no vaccine is completely effective, so you should continue to take recommended precautions to avoid infection"

"We do not yet know whether it will stop you from catching and passing on the virus"

"based on clinical trials, experts do know that vaccine-induced immunity should last a minimum of about three months"

Having the vaccine makes you less likely to get very ill from coronavirus.
We do not yet know whether it will stop you from catching and passing on the virus.
20 Feb 2021

How long does the vaccine protect you?
How long will vaccine-supported inoculation last? Federal health authorities have not provided a definitive answer to this question. But based on clinical trials, experts do know that vaccine-induced immunity should last a minimum of about three months.5 days ago

It takes a few weeks for your body to build up protection from the vaccine. Like all medicines, no vaccine is completely effective, so you should continue to take recommended precautions to avoid infection. Some people may still get COVID-19 despite having a vaccination, but this should be less severe.26 Mar 2021

 

[Brew_DD2]

Around 10-20% of infections lead to long Covid, which you really don't want. And the more cases of Covid, the more opportunity for the virus to mutate. There seems to be something very worrying happening in Brazil, where it is completely out of control - since February young people are starting to die in much greater numbers than before, implying a variant that is 3+ times more deadly to 20-somethings. And don't forget the young have no automatic right to be safe from these things - in 1918 flu deaths peaked at the age of 28.

View attachment 44598


It's actually about much more than that, but even if you take that narrow definition - we can't afford to go back to lockdowns every winter when a new variant emerges that breaks the current vaccine. The only way to protect the economy is to follow the example of Japan, South Korea etc and take tough decisions which get us rid of it. We're still at 10x the infection rate of last summer - and that infection rate was still not low enough to prevent the explosion of cases in the winter.

Look I completely understand why people think we can relax a bit now, with the vaccination programme going well and if they have personally been vaccinated. But in fact this is a really dangerous time, it's not the time to get sloppy. If you want to generate a variant that breaks the vaccine, then you need a big population of virus (ie lots of unvaccinated people) with the opportunity to meet lots of vaccinated people, particularly people who have only had one ***.

Does that sound anything like where we are now? In fact, I wonder if we've not already created a vaccine-breaking variant in Yorkshire - something doesn't feel quite right about the way cases are surging in places like Wetherby and Sheffield. But certainly the whole world should be worried about what's going on in Brazil, and Manaus in particular. There's estimates that Manaus was up to around 75% infected by October, which should have been enough for "herd immunity" - but all that happened was they had so much virus circulating that it created variants that broke the immunity given by natural infection and now Brazil seems to be facing a real disaster.

Nobody is safe until everyone is safe.

In that case we're going to be in this situation in perpetuity, because the younger age groups are just not going to take the vaccination in anywhere near the same numbers. A Covid passport isn't going to change that.

And I'll have to disagree with you. People have accepted huge curbs upon their freedom on the basis of protecting our health service from collapse. If people aren't being hospitalised in significant numbers, you'll have a hard time convincing the populous to put up with ongoing restrictions.

FWIW my opposition to a Covid passport has little to do with my own vaccination status and more to do with my perception of its utility. I just don't see it being able to achieve any of the desired effects or stated goals.

 

[Brew_DD2]

We're still at 10x the infection rate of last summer - and that infection rate was still not low enough to prevent the explosion of cases in the winter

That's a rather disingenuous argument. The explosion of cases in the winter was, as you know, against a backdrop of a population that hadn't yet been vaccinated.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

because the younger age groups are just not going to take the vaccination in anywhere near the same numbers.

Well that isn't true my son is 23 and when i got my date for my first vaccine i asked what he and his friends thought about having the vaccine by the end of the year and he said the majority want to have it.

 

[Brew_DD2]

Well that isn't true my son is 23 and when i got my date for my first vaccine i asked what he and his friends thought about having the vaccine by the end of the year and he said the majority want to have it.

Anecdotal.

https://www.nursingtimes.net/news/r...19-vaccine-hesitancy-by-ethnicity-15-03-2021/

 

[Brewnaldo]

Honestly....

"Having the vaccine doesn't make you immortal"

Is now a justification for destructive social restrictions. I truly despair.

Seems like rather a lot of people more than happy to torch society to keep themselves safe.

The lack of perspective on show here as regards the cost/benefit of restrictions, and the previous stated aims of restrictions is quite staggering.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

The lack of perspective on show here as regards the cost/benefit of restrictions, and the precious stated aims of restrictions is quite staggering.

The way i see it is there are those -

A] Who do not want the vaccine but think they should be allowed to go into pubs and mix with those that have.

B] Who have had the vaccine and would rather not mix in close proximity with those that haven't. (be it by choice or for other medical reasons)

It makes no odds that you think all those in category B have got this all wrong that is their belief and you are not going to change their minds by constantly trotting out the same old same old here i will not visit a pub or restaurant if they have no restriction on who is allowed in be it a passport or lateral flow testing that is my decision and try as you might to prove it the wrong one its not going to change anything.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

because the younger age groups are just not going to take the vaccination in anywhere near the same numbers.

78% taking it certainly isn't "not going to take the vaccination in anywhere near the same numbers" by the time they get round to them the advertising will target them on social media and places they visit and i imagine take up will be higher, time will tall if i am right.

Screen shot from the BBC report - Covid vaccine: Will young people take it?

 

[Brewnaldo]

The way i see it is there are those -

A] Who do not want the vaccine but think they should be allowed to go into pubs.

B] Who have had the vaccine and would rather not mix in close proximity to those that haven't.

It makes no odds that you think all those in category B have got this all wrong that is their belief and you are not going to change their minds by constantly trotting out the same old same old here i will not visit a pub or restaurant if they have no restriction on who is allowed in be it a passport or lateral flow testing that is my decision and try as you might to prove it the wrong one its not going to change anything.

Ah... A personal assessment of risk then. That will never catch on.

But once again, you have offered literally nothing, and its not just you, Boris Johnson hasn't either, to quantify how or why a vaccine passport keeps anyone safer than the vaccine itself. And thats the issue here. Why is this being foisted on us? Even MPs in the Conservative party are rubbishing it. Experts have literally come out and said this doesn't actually offer anything tangible.

Once again though, you will be mixing with unvaccinated potential carriers forevermore unless you choose to avoid anywhere that under 16s may be present.

 

[The Baron]

The 16-29 age group reported the highest level of hesitancy at 17 per cent
Poll experts said one explanation for the hesitancy could be linked to the roll-out of the mass vaccination programme, which prioritised older and vulnerable people.
Office for National Statistics published in the last 4 weeks
This in my mind is not the large amounts that you are trying to infer at all, we can all keep pulling up reports to show stats and bear in mind the 17% are hesitant and some of those will opt for the vaccination when they are offered it so that figure will in real terms be lower