Conical Fermenter

[evanvine]

Not very sure about the concerns re cleaning copper!
When you use an IC it always comes out very shiney.

Just another of my oddball thoughts.

 

[Vossy1]

When you use an IC it always comes out very shiney.

That's because the acidic wort dissolves the protective oxidised layer on the copper revealing the copper beneath. I really didn't like the idea of the oxidised layer entering my beer when using an CFC, so I deliberately stripped it off with acidic cleaner before use.
I'm not sure what's better though, oxidised additions, copper additions, or both. I'm pretty sure the yeast will have a field day with it anyway, so not much of a concern

 

[Springer]

Not very sure about the concerns re cleaning copper!

I think my concern was about general cleaning, not particularly copper, probably thinking of the brazed joints and nooks and cranies of a home built piece of kit. :?

Also remember seeing concerns over scratches in plastic buckets ? and I think Vossy being concerned about poor welds in "some" ss conicals. Think these thoughts got me going. ?

Still not sure how to clean the conical especially if it is sealed, I am going to start a post on it, to flush out the wise ones, on such matters :)

Will do it tomorrow, been out with one of the Spaniels all day, pheasants won today, most were hiding or the beaters dogs had hang overs, or the birds were flying to fast, or the guns (ones doing the shooting) had hang overs. My gel got fed up sitting still getting a cold arsx .One guy said he was trading in his gun for one that shot straight. :? :lol:
Time for bath, beer, dinner, settee, bed. : :lol:

 

[Vossy1]

For cleaning large conicals/vessels have a look at unclepumples piccies here.
Big pump, CIP head, sorted. Caustic soda and a sanitiser, or chlorinated caustic, amongst others, are used in a lot of breweries, but I don't think they're suitable for copper..can't remember ..will dig out data sheet

 

[Aleman]

Chlorinated caustic is fine on copper . . . Its the acid based ones that are not . . . And Peracetic . . . .

 

[Springer]

Thanks A

Chlorinated caustic is fine on copper

Had a quick google and found reference to above, but it all seemed to be in large quantities, did I not look hard enough.?

There seems to be quite an interest in the thread, don't know whether this is conicals or copper conicals ?

Just tried the obvious and did a google on "copper conical fermenter" and there is loads of related stuff out there. Will have to read it more when time permits, but time to get off to the workshop and get something "real" done.

Anyone going to summarise the subject?
S

 

[Vossy1]

I had a serious think about sanitizers and cleaners recently, and in the end I decided to use caustic soda pearl for cleaning, and either an iodophor or peracetic based sanitizer....why

Liquid chlorinated caustics are really designed to be used fairly quickly, the max shelf life I could find on one was 9 months if stored correctly. The most commonly used CC cleaner/sanitizer used in the brewing industry came in with a recommended 3 month shelf life.
I simply couldn't use the volumes as they were supplied quickly enough...there would have been a lot of waste.

I then decided to look into powdered chlorinated caustic cleaners. I found them with a shelf life of 12 months but they were a little expensive, not dear, just not cheap!

I finally settled on caustic soda pearl as a cleaner. I bought it from a local farm shop for £22 ish for 25kg and it has a 2 year shelf life if stored properly. I used it for the first time yesterday at a rate of 625g in 20ltr which is drain cleaning strength , recircing through the brewery filter, tubing and GPHE at 50 deg c. I thought my stainless was fairly clean until the caustic turned brown. Huge flakes or **** came off the elements...I knew they had some coating on them, but not that much. It really is very good stuff, but it does require careful handling. My usual approach to see if I have something colourless on my fingers is to touch my tongue......I won't be doing that again in a hurry ...and a pair of marigold gloves is a must, along with safety specs.

There are a lot of things used in the dairy industry which have cross over with the brewing industry, it's just knowing where to look

 

[Springer]

Lots of good information there again Vossy, thanks.
Sorry to hear about the tongue, hope its not damaged your taste buds and spoilt your drinking :)
So what is a reasonable CIP regime to follow ?

 

[Aleman]

The problem with using CIP and copper is one of compatibility.

Caustic Soda will clean any organic componds . . . very very well . . . and it makes great soap out of the oils on your skin :shock:

You then need to sanitise it, and here you start to have issues. the no rinse sanitisers that are usually mentioned . . . like Peracetic (from a dairy supplier), and iodophor cannot be used. Peracetic breakdown is catalysed by copper and it forms this bluey green slime, iodophor also decolourises in contact with copper. . . . Star san is a possibility but being acidic will strip the oxide coating off the copper surface . . . is that a good idea or bad? Dunno really . . . it does happen with cooling coils during the boil, but the fermenter is in contact with the wort for much longer . . . and there is more of it. :hmm:

 

[evanvine]

AM
Are you indicating that contact with bright copper can influence the brew and that a coating of copper oxide prevents this?
It's something I've never thought of.

 

[Aleman]

Neither copper or copper oxide will affect the brew as such . . . however an excess of metal ions can lead to hazes in beer . . . . Copper is also poisonous, and the WHO limit for copper in drinking water is 2mg/l.

While I have no worries about using a copper coil in an IC or immersion chiller (and know that copper is going into my wort from the stripping of the copper oxide) I am unsure about the long term effects of using copper vesels for fermentation . . . I have seen evidence (The CBA published data last year in Brewers Contact) that even in breweries with high amounts of copper work the levels of copper in the finished beer are low, it being absorbed by the yeast.

I also know that bright copper does not react when in contact with dilute acid (Only copper oxide does) such as wort (possibly) which explains why copper has been used in the past for fermentation vessels. . . . and can probably be used again . . . if it has been oxide stripped using a hot acid solution as part of a final CIP regime.

 

[evanvine]

Thank you for that concise informative post AM. :thumb:

 

[Springer]

Thanks for that advice A.
Still not quite cracked it at this end. What would be a "hot acid solution" and would the conical then need treating with say Star San, as a possibe solution ? :?
That Star San looks to be good stuff, (did some reading on Jim's, Should I say that here. :) ) should I be using it as a bottle sanitise maybe, to save all the rinsing ?
Springer.

 

[Vossy1]

Star san is a possibility but being acidic will strip the oxide coating off the copper surface

As far as as I was aware Starsan and Saniclean (non foaming version of Starsan) are both acidified iodophors and as such will react with copper. I know Saniclean does, as it used to happen with extended recirc times through my cfc, 5 mins plus, ie, the solution would go clear from original brown. To get round the problem I used contact times of no more than 3 minutes, that worked fine, though I'm sure this time could be significantly reduced if required.

I should have mentioned in my post below that I the sanitisers and cleaners I use are for a stainless brewery...sorry :thumb:

 

[Springer]

Did some more digging and found some stuff saying copper was not suitable for long contact with wort, as in a fermenter. Not sure what was used in the past did people get affected and didn't know it.
Seem to getting a no goer for me............... :?
Did Brewstew do any good with the plastic conical that he was considering, does anyone know ?
S

 

[EskiBrew]

Did Brewstew do any good with the plastic conical that he was considering, does anyone know ?
S

No idea about what Brewstew was looking at but there is now somewhere in the UK to get the Vvessel plastic conicals (hopandgrape)

 

[Aleman]

Stu was looking at the 120L conicals from places like Smiths Of The Dean or Oily bits. I have to say that I have also been seriously looking at these myself. I do know one other brewer that has purchased one (From oilybits) and the only concerns I have are

1) the 'step' where the cone joins the tank. This will collect yeast which will slump down the walls during transfer to keg causing cloudy beer. Its fairly easy to resolve by running a sanitised spatula round the wall a couple of days before transfer.

2) The inside will have a texture similar to a king keg which is not completely smooth and could prevent yeast extraction.

3) The threading on the bottom of the cone is quite dirty, and I have concerns about disinfecting it completely. I have spoken to someone about fabricating a stainless tank connector to fit from inside the tank which has a silicon sealing washer and the beer would then not come into contact with the plastic thread.

Looking at the Prices on the oily bits site 155 quid for tank and stand is still looking good . . . and 335 for the 1000L is even better

 

[Vossy1]

An additional concern for me was the size of the hatch/opening. At only 100mm it would make cleaning by hand difficult, though not a problem if CIP.

 

[Springer]

1) the 'step' where the cone joins the tank. This will collect yeast which will slump down the walls during transfer to keg causing cloudy beer. Its fairly easy to resolve by running a sanitised spatula round the wall a couple of days before transfer.

Would this be solved by adding a tap near top of cone, maybe with an inlet away from the wall.

The stand looks pricey to my way of thinking, i'm saw, welder, hammer myself so think I can make one much cheaper, so its about a hundred for me Could be on the list after pump and PID.

I am sure a bigger hole could be sealed somehow but I think the pressure washer would do ok as Bs what suggesting if I remember correctly ?
:
S

 

[Aleman]

1) the 'step' where the cone joins the tank. This will collect yeast which will slump down the walls during transfer to keg causing cloudy beer. Its fairly easy to resolve by running a sanitised spatula round the wall a couple of days before transfer.

Would this be solved by adding a tap near top of cone, maybe with an inlet away from the wall.

No, The yeast collects in the cone, which you then dump out of the bottom valve, You can then put another BV in the side of the cone to remove clear beer . . . of course once the level of beer falls below the step it carries some of the yeast with it. . . . Putting a tap above the step would work but you would end up with a significant qty of beer left behind

The stand looks pricey to my way of thinking, i'm saw, welder, hammer myself so think I can make one much cheaper, so its about a hundred for me Could be on the list after pump and PID.

Wish I could weld . . . It might be something I'll look into as part of an Adult Training course this year. 155 for the metal stand is expensive byt 155 for the stand and conical Isn't too bad

I am sure a bigger hole could be sealed somehow but I think the pressure washer would do ok as Bs what suggesting if I remember correctly ?

Removing the top would work as well , although I would go with CIP (Using the Pressure washer) and A Fogging Unit for disinfecting