Conical Fermenter

[Springer]

Not posted for a while, been busy, but HERMS brewery is progressing, posts with pics later. I am now pondering the "best" way to ferment my proposed 15 gallon brews. My original and current plan is to use three plastic buckets, placed in a purpose made insulated cupboard, containing a small bar heater controlled by a room stat. Low cost, easy of use and efficient, pretty good I think?
However, I cannot get this http://hbd.org/brewniversity/engineering/conical/ out of my mind, especially as I have come by two copper water cylinders
Questions are how would I sterilise a brazed copper fermenter and how could it be heated ? apart from putting it in the cupboard ! (which will also be used for the secondary fermentation of bottled stuff .
Regards to all
Springer

 

[prolix]

It does look fine

 

[ilikerossi]

Not posted for a while, been busy, but HERMS brewery is progressing, posts with pics later. I am now pondering the "best" way to ferment my proposed 15 gallon brews. My original and current plan is to use three plastic buckets, placed in a purpose made insulated cupboard, containing a small bar heater controlled by a room stat. Low cost, easy of use and efficient, pretty good I think?
However, I cannot get this http://hbd.org/brewniversity/engineering/conical/ out of my mind, especially as I have come by two copper water cylinders
Questions are how would I sterilise a brazed copper fermenter and how could it be heated ? apart from putting it in the cupboard ! (which will also be used for the secondary fermentation of bottled stuff .
Regards to all
Springer

Looks wonderful that does!
I use a heavy duty adjustable water / nutrient heater with thermostat (fish tank style), maybe you could drill a small hole in the top, disconnect the plug, thread the lead through, reconnect plug - might need to seal the hole? they do have sucker pods on the bottom which makes it quite handy, this might not be the best way for copper :wha: but it works well in a plastic FV.

 

[Springer]

Thanks for replies, yes it certainly does look good, but will it work, can it be sterilised ?
This fish heater mentioned will work ok for sure, but again a cleaning issue ? I was thinking more along the lines of some trace heating cable wrapped around the cone and lagging the whole thing for efficiency ?
Or maybe a small external heat exchanger piped through the vessel wall so that it could all be cleaned in one go, or CIP as they call it :)
Should a fermenter be air tight ? Dunno myself, need comments for the experts. Just thought this looked interesting and worth a debate especially as there is a thread about at the moment about SS Chinese conicals with a price tag of 500 quid............. out of my league for sure........recon these could be built for a very very very small fraction of that ? But admittedly not Stainless :)
Not sure how these SS conicals are heated :?
Regards
Springer

 

[prolix]

most of those stainless conicals can be placed in a tall fridge used as fermenting fridge, otherwise heat belt and blankets, thats what I use on my plastic fermenter.

 

[Springer]

Thanks for reply Prolix,
my heated cupboard is the easy option then
Should be obvious but its all about insulation, so the cupboard, planned to take three 5 gallon buckets, or a conical !! ,or lots of bottled stuff to get it going, will be 5mm ply either side of a 40mm frame, filled with rockwool, with a 60 watt bar heater controlled by a room stat.
I have a very poor temporary solution going at the moment, which is the heater in the bottom of a steel office cupboard surrounded by bottles supporting a shelf filled with bottle, covered in a big layer of rockwool. It is really struggling, nearly all the heat is going through the side walls and the crack where the door don't shut because of the cable coming out, did not want to drill a hole as it is only temporal solution. Barely that
As I said its all down to insulation.
Springer

 

[prolix]

I tried to convince the wife the house was a great fermentation cupboard .

She had none of it.

 

[Vossy1]

with a 60 watt bar heater controlled by a room stat.

While a room stat will do the job S, they only control within a few degrees, you'd be far better of with an ATC 800+ or a TC 10 from Fortrex (see E-bay). Come the summer you may find you need a way to cool the fv also.

Not sure how these SS conicals are heated

There are a few options for the home brewer, usually the fv is placed in an insulated cupboard/fridge/environment with a thermometer/probe in the wort. You could use a vivarium heat mat attached/glued to the side to the conical, used by sf.
Alternatively, you could heat the environment, ie, tubular heater/light bulb in a cupboard,
or you could use a heated water jacket or electric blanket, then again you could use a fish tank heater.
Gentle heating options work the best and don't stress the yeast too much.

Cooling is slightly more difficult, it can be done again a few ways.
The thermometer should be placed in the wort. You can cool the environment, ie, put the fv in a fridge, or make your own air con device, or direct chill via a cooling coil in the fv with a supply from a chiller of some sort. There is always the option of using the atmosphere to chill, but then you're at the mercy of cooler weather brewing.

Re -wiring a fridge using a ATC 800 or TC 10 including a heating element is a very good way to go, and possibly the cheapest also.

 

[Springer]

Thanks for all that knowledge vossy really helpful, never considered having to cool it ! I think I am fancying the heated environment, that also sounds much more up market than a bar heater in home made cupboard, :lol: Like the idea of a fancy control device, have done some planning on PIDS from the American source that you put me on to.
You never commented on that copper fermenter, I know you like stainless, but would the copper one shown be a goer, especially regarding cleaning ?

I tried to convince the wife the house was a great fermentation cupboard .

Trying hard to keep out of Mrs. Springer's way with the beer, she gets agitated when I leave a dozen or so bottles on the draining board, all washed would you know. She used to get even more agitated when I used to use the kitchen as a brew house, hence the building of the workshop annex, brewery. Think if she turned me out I could survive at the bottom of the garden. :lol:

Started celebrations here, just polished off a very nice bottled IPA, think I'll go and get another .

Springer

 

[Vossy1]

You never commented on that copper fermenter, I know you like stainless, but would the copper one shown be a goer, especially regarding cleaning ?

I think it would make a great fv, and would look fantastic.
I've never looked into cleaning/sanitising copper vessels, but there should be a few folk on the forum who may know the ins and outs of cleaning and sanitising copper :thumb:

 

[Springer]

Thanks vossy,

I know i will start a new thread hey, am getting the idea :)

Good news on the brewery, did good for presents but Mrs S. said I didn't buy much !, I thought you were spending money on the brewery, that is definitely a green light................pumps, PIDs, probes, heaters.................... lets go for it.............
Merry Christmas

 

[Vossy1]

Good news on the brewery, did good for presents but Mrs S. said I didn't buy much !, I thought you were spending money on the brewery, that is definitely a green light

:party: .. :P

 

[evanvine]

I have read a lot of posts, with great interest, including this one re “Conicals”.

Can somebody please explain the principle of operation of one and why they are worth so much effort/money?

It’s stopping me from sleeping at night. :whistle:

 

[Springer]

I'm with you on this one E. but thought they must be worth considering :? My approach was planned to be 3 plastic 5 gallon buckets in my insulated cupboard, or heated environment as Vossy so nicely put it
These would be easy to move about and fill syphon from etc. but three times as much work that why the jury is still out :?
One big advantage of the fermenter, I believe is the ability to "Drop" out the yeast after the initial fermentation and then use the high outlet to get undisturbed beer out, at end with no messing about.
I have "dropped " the yeast on a few brews and think it does make a difference, my one of my discerning tasters did pick a bottle out of four samples, but that could have been chance or something else. I just syphoned off into a new bucket after 24 -36 hours, but it is a lot of extra messing about and extra chance of infection.
I believe that one of the big Burton breweries used to do it, Marstons if I remember correctly, someone wise out there will now all about it and put us in the right direction. :)
Time to go and finish off the pork pie for breakfast.......... a tradition as in years gone past.............
Springer

 

[evanvine]

I rack off after 2 days, it gets rid of a lot of "cold break" material.
Enjoy your pork pie!

 

[Vossy1]

I believe that one of the big Burton breweries used to do it, Marstons if I remember correctly, someone wise out there will now all about it and put us in the right direction

Quite a few brewieries used to double drop, here's one example

One big advantage of the fermenter, I believe is the ability to "Drop" out the yeast after the initial fermentation and then use the high outlet to get undisturbed beer out, at end with no messing about.

They do. Conicals also let you harvest the yeast in a sanitary manner at the end of fermentation.

Can somebody please explain the principle of operation of one and why they are worth so much effort/money?

Because of the way you can just dump the initial yeast/protein combo (if you desire) and the way you can easily harvest the yeast, I would say they are less effort than using plastic buckets. This can all be done in a sanitary manner unlike with a plastic bucket. You can also transfer beer at the end of fermentation by pressurising the conical with C02, forcing the beer out, and reducing the possibility of oxidation on transfer.

They do cost a lot of money, but again it's just personal choice as to whether to have one or not. Plastic conicals, as used in the biodiesel market, can easily be converted for HB use for about 1/5 of the cost of a ss one.... :P
Here's an example of a plastic conical.

EDIT Transfering and cooling the wort to the corny and then being able to dump the cold break is also another benefit of a conical...one of the main reasons I want one!

 

[evanvine]

Thank you for the info and web site Vossy.
When I refered to "effort" I was meaning building one as opposed to buying one, I don't make myself very clear do I.

 

[Springer]

I've never looked into cleaning/sanitising copper vessels, but there should be a few folk on the forum who may know the ins and outs of cleaning and sanitising copper

I will start a new thread on this one but how about injecting stream from say the good old wallpaper stripper, this is one way used in food processing but don't know if it will do for brewing. That would have not effect on the copper phosphorus brazing

You can also transfer beer at the end of fermentation by pressurising the conical with C02, forcing the beer out, and reducing the possibility of oxidation on transfer.

Are we saying the conical is sealed then with a small gas escape, don't see how it would be cleaned and sanitised or am I not seeing it right :?

I am really liking the idea of the conical but need to sort the lose ends out before deciding. Certainly seems to be lots of advantages.......... Thats why to professional boys are using them .................. :)

 

[Vossy1]

Are we saying the conical is sealed then with a small gas escape, don't see how it would be cleaned and sanitised or am I not seeing it right

The conical is sealed (airlock/blow off tube needs removing and locating plug sealing before the next step). You put a fitting in the conical lid (JG push fit or other) and then attach a C02 line from a regulator. Using low pressure, say 1-3 PSI, open the gas, then open the racking ball valve, and the beer is pushed out of the conical and into a corny (or other storage/serving vessel). Naturally the conical has to be rated for the pressure. This method also means the beer is not exposed to air in the conical on transfer.

Does that make sense?

EDIT, personally for me I'd prefer to rack by gravity finding some way of filtering the air that enters the conical on beer racking, but that's just me :grin:

 

[Springer]

Thanks V,
Think I' m seeing it, just down to the cleaning sanitising then, I will start a new thread as mentioned.
S