Cant get my head around water treatment

[Sadfield]

It's threads like this that puts people off trying to treat their water. Talk about unnecessary overcomplicating a subject.

We're just using the remnants for a bit of amusement/contemplation. If you're not interested, don't look!

I can 100% endorse both these sentiments. Not that I think the first is intended to alter the second.

 

[Brew_DD2]

Ger'off! Kill-joy!

@Libigage (who started this thread) was sorted yonks ago. We're just using the remnants for a bit of amusement/contemplation. If you're not interested, don't look!

Well the thread is about not being able to get their head around water treatment, and again you jump in with both feet and are wilfully obtuse about a subject that absolutely doesn't require it.

Have you tried feeding yourself into the defuddler?

 

[Chippy_Tea]

Yes. Stunning difference. Brighter. Clearer, clearer quicker & no beer rock.
Getting the water right when 80% right, makes a difference.

Thanks for answering and this is not intended to be a p**s take -

If it makes that much difference why do so few members treat their water?

 

[Brew_DD2]

Thanks for answering and this is not intended to be a p**s take -

If it makes that much difference why do so few members treat their water?

Probably because it appears quite daunting at first, when in reality it's really simple. Plus, there is a lot of ritualistic practice in brewing. I lost count of the amount of times they I heard "my water is fine to drink, so it's good to brew with", when I was first starting out.

 

[Agentgonzo]

Thanks for answering and this is not intended to be a p**s take -

If it makes that much difference why do so few members treat their water?

I think (and from my previous experience):

• It's confusing. I have an A-level in chemistry and I found hardness/alkalinity confusing. For those without a decent basis in chemistry, it's even more confusing.
• Water calculators for homebrewers have only been around for the last decade, maybe two. It's a "new" subject
• It's the one part of brewing that is specific to you, and you can't just use someone else's chemical additions from a recipe like you would do with malt/hops/yeast, so you can't just follow a recipe
• It's an advanced topic, and any "advice" tends to confuse people even more (this thread is a good example)
• You can make excellent beer without water treatment, so it can be a case of "it's not broken, so I don't need to fix it" or "it wasn't possible to notice the difference it made until I started adjusting the water profile".

 

[Davegase]

Thanks for answering and this is not intended to be a p**s take -

If it makes that much difference why do so few members treat their water?

I put off water treatment for years because unless you know exactly what in your water to start with and you know what you're doing it's pointless. Even now I don't claim to know what I'm doing but I can use the calculator in brewfather.

When I was brewing 35 to 40 years ago the only treatment I would do is Camden tablet, and if I was going to attempt to lager I would boil the water the day before and then rack it off for brew day.

I decided when I got back into brewing or grain a couple of years ago I would make the effort.
So in January of last year I had a water analysis for my tap water and for spotless water.
Going forward I will probably use spotless for most of my brewing.
The reason is it's a more consistent source which obviates need for repeated analysis.
If I do use my tap water I would just rely on the report that I got last January from Murphy's.
I wouldn't bother with a Thames water authority report, they don't even include calcium in the report!!

 

[The Baron]

Well the thread is about not being able to get their head around water treatment, and again you jump in with both feet and are wilfully obtuse about a subject that absolutely doesn't require it.

Have you tried feeding yourself into the defuddler?

I have got to agree I would love to do more than just a campden tablet and adding lactic acid but although
understand most of brewing science maybe to a lesser degree but enough to get by I find the discussion on water treatment mindblowing.
I think I will just get a Murphys water report add all the results into the Brewers Friend water calc or go down the RO water with Spotless and add the required minerals etc.
Now that sounds simple

 

[Sadfield]

I put off water treatment for years because unless you know exactly what in your water to start with and you know what you're doing it's pointless.

This type of thinking is the problem. You don't need to know exactly, brewing is very forgiving.

If you are already making OK beer and you know roughly what is in your water, and you know the basic principles of what needs fixing, then any steps to correct will just move the water towards being better for brewing than what you already have. Doing something is better than doing nothing.

For example.

From Murphy's....

Calcium (Ca++)​

Calcium is a very important constituent and performs a number of functions:-

• Decreases the pH during mashing and wort boiling, favouring enzyme activity
• Promotes the precipitation of unwanted proteins in the kettle, hop back or whirlpool
• Promotes yeast flocculation at the end of fermentation
• Promotes head retention on beer
• Reacts with oxalate to form an insoluble salt, preventing gushing in beer

Just getting the calcium between 100-150ppm will have a positive affect and can be done by simply adding Calcium Sulphate (Gypsum), adding 1 gram to 10 litres of water increases the calcium by 23 ppm. An easy, uncomplicated water treatment that will have a marked affect on brewing a pale ale.

 

[Clint]

I found Steve's thread the easiest to understand.
I've written down my additions per beer and don't bother changing. I know the water can change but I doubt it'll change the way things turn out.
I might have to do some fettling on changing to slightly smaller batches.

 

[Davegase]

If you are already making OK beer and you know roughly what is in your water, and you know the basic principles of what needs fixing, then any steps to correct will just move the water towards being better for brewing than what you already have. Doing something is better than doing nothing.

I didn't know roughly what was in my tap water 35 to 40 years ago other than it wasn't soft it was "hard" that's why I only treated it with a campden tablet and if making a lager I pre boiled it the day before to remove some temporary hardness.
When I came back to brewing and started to read about RO and spotless water I decided to get my tap water analyzed by Murphy's, together with the spotless water.
Now I've got some numbers to work with.
I had previously looked at the Thames water Report but as I said earlier it doesn't even include calcium, which as you said is very important.
As tap water quality does change throughout the year I decided that I will mostly use Spotless because it is a more consistent supply.
I may sometimes use my tap water as now I've had a Murphy's report for my tap water I can say I do have a rough idea what levels are in it.
Perhaps my wording in my previous post should have been unless you know (ROUGHLY) what's in it instead of "exactly".
Sorry about that !

 

[Brew_DD2]

I found Steve's thread the easiest to understand.
I've written down my additions per beer and don't bother changing. I know the water can change but I doubt it'll change the way things turn out.
I might have to do some fettling on changing to slightly smaller batches.

Agreed. Get a rough idea of your base water. Add Campden to get rid of any potential chlorine. Adjust Calcium, Magnesium, Sodium, Chloride, Sulfate and Hardness upwards by adding salts (Calcium Chloride, Epsom, Table Salt, Gypsum and Baking Soda), or downwards by cutting your water with distilled or water with less overall minerality, or using AMS or CRS.

Loads of calculators out there will take the maths out of it for you, and will tell you the exact quantities you need for any given style (other than getting a water report each day you brew, we're never going to be exact). Once you are more confident in your recipe design, you can start experimenting with different ratios depending on what your goals are.

 

[Sadfield]

Sorry about that !

No apology needed. It wasn't a post directed at you, you clearly have worked out what works, just using the wording as an example. It appears that trying to know exactly what is in the water is the stumbling block for many, rather than taking small, positive actions and observing tangible results, that don't ruin a beer.

 

[peebee]

Well the thread is about not being able to get their head around water treatment, and again you jump in with both feet and are wilfully obtuse about a subject that absolutely doesn't require it.

Have you tried feeding yourself into the defuddler?

You are doing something I seen done elsewhere: You decide you don't like someone, on the grounds that it's the popular thing to do, then make something up about them, then accuse them of doing that made up thing.

It's a normal thing to do in human societies. there's a name for people doing it, it's ... (I'll think of it in a minute). ***



Let's see ... "obtuse?". You mean like telling @Libigage to throw out half the information he's got (on Page 1) because it's so confusing, contradictory, and un-necessary. I forget ... there's lots of people here who think it's essential and need to pass that "valuable" fact onto beginners so it can confuse the hell out of them. They can be as confused as they are then.





*** (Of course, I know exactly what I'm referring to! So does @Chippy_Tea! But because of his position, and that he's put himself in firing-line by "approving" these actions, I guess I'll best keep further clues to myself. Pity ... because of that I can't effectively use the feature to report personal abusive posts?). >obtuse<

 

[Clint]

Thinking about it I don't think I did anything about magnesium...just entered a number into the calculator.
I must have a look at it again.

 

[peebee]

Postcode for Spotless water station DA26HH
Postcode for my tap water

Thanks very much!

It actually doesn't come out much different to the more recent analysis. Your water supply seems very stable. At least the old ones do include sodium. I had to extract the calcium value from "Hardness", works out as 130mg/L. Thames Water are sticklers for "hardness"!

Though your water does contain a big load of "alkalinity" ... I can appreciate why you go for "Spotless"!

 

[Brew_DD2]

You are doing something I seen done elsewhere: You decide you don't like someone, on the grounds that it's the popular thing to do, then make something up about them, then accuse them of doing that made up thing.

It's a normal thing to do in human societies. there's a name for people doing it, it's ... (I'll think of it in a minute). ***



Let's see ... "obtuse?". You mean like telling @Libigage to throw out half the information he's got (on Page 1) because it's so confusing, contradictory, and un-necessary. I forget ... there's lots of people here who think it's essential and need to pass that "valuable" fact onto beginners so it can confuse the hell out of them. They can be as confused as they are then.





*** (Of course, I know exactly what I'm referring to! So does @Chippy_Tea! But because of his position, and that he's put himself in firing-line by "approving" these actions, I guess I'll best keep further clues to myself. Pity ... because of that I can't effectively use the feature to report personal abusive posts?). >obtuse<

I don't know you and don't give you a second thought. I just find your input on water way over the top for the needs of brewing good beer. I can see that you're trying to be helpful with this stuff, but you're guilty of way overcomplicating it for 99.9% of a brewer's needs. If you think I've made that up due to some vendetta against you, then I don't know what to say to you. You know yourself that you go all-in as soon as water is mentioned, so please don't project onto me, thanks.

If I'm ever in a life or death position where I need to answer a specific question on the intricacies of water chemistry I may well come to you, but I fear all of us might've died by the time you've formulated your answer

Seriously though, I have absolutely no problem with you. And I can assure you, that the mods on here have little love for me, so report away if I've offended you in any way.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

(Of course, I know exactly what I'm referring to! So does @Chippy_Tea! But because of his position, and that he's put himself in firing-line by "approving" these actions,

I am not sure I have approved anything if you feel someone has personally attacked you please report the offending post and the mods will discuss it.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

Seriously though, I have absolutely no problem with you. And I can assure you, that the mods on here have little love for me, so report away if I've offended you in any way.

We love all members equally.

 

[The Baron]

As long as it stays civilised the mods have no problem in members having different views.
Surely that is what discussion is about

 

[Agentgonzo]

Surely that is what discussion is about

Nope. A discussion is about being right.