Cant get my head around water treatment

[Keruso]

So this is my next planed brew, does it look right going by my water report. I'm going to have quite a bit of dead space below my tap in my burco for my sparge water. https://share.brewfather.app/5xSW2xrRxXTNQW

Ignore your water report and go with spotless or something similar like I posted earlier

 

[Davegase]

Ignore your water report and go with spotless or something similar like I posted earlier

There's nothing wrong with using your water report to calculate your additions but using Spotless water will give you a consistent results without the need for regular water analysis.

 

[peebee]

Gawd! Have you heard to this lot. And it was always ME who over complicated things!

This is @Libigage's thread, and he has a perfectly good analysis ... for FREE! (Okay, so not perfect, but we've exorcised the drivel for him already). Why should he spend £35 (or more) on a private report, that's a point-in-time, will be out of date by next week, and will leave @Libigage no better off figuring what he's going to do with it than when he started this thread? What's he going to do with "Spotless water"? Is anyone advising him sure what they are doing themselves? Gheesh, I despair ...

Tell you what ("I don't like Monday" ... no, that's on the telly) ... Happy New Year!

 

[Davegase]

Thank you, I mainly brew hoppy pale ales and sometimes neipa's and west coast ipa's. I am open to using my tap water as shown or ashbeck from tescos or I have a spotless water supplier 10 minutes up the road. I just want to know what chemicals I need to buy and how much to add. I just want someone to do the sums for me.

As peebee says your water report will be out of date it's only valid at that point in time.
It doesn't matter if you get a good free report or pay for one.

If you decide to use spotless water I've copied your recipe into brewfarther and change the water to Spotless. I've attached a link to the screenshot of the results.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/LBbWW1bD7KsymX5S8

I should have posted your updated recipe.
https://share.brewfather.app/xc7aismqhqh2Mt

 

[Libigage]

As peebee says your water report will be out of date it's only valid at that point in time.
It doesn't matter if you get a good free report or pay for one.

If you decide to use spotless water I've copied your recipe into brewfarther and change the water to Spotless. I've attached a link to the screenshot of the results.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/LBbWW1bD7KsymX5S8

I should have posted your updated recipe.
https://share.brewfather.app/xc7aismqhqh2Mt

Nothing in the sparge ??

 

[Libigage]

Nothing in the sparge ??

Sparge with spotless or tap ?

 

[Davegase]

Nothing in the sparge ??

In Btewfather water section you can select sparge and it will split the treatment for you.
Like in this version.
https://share.brewfather.app/xc7aismqhqh2Mt

 

[Davegase]

In Btewfather water section you can select sparge and it will split the treatment for you.
Like in this version.
https://share.brewfather.app/xc7aismqhqh2Mt

Sorry I posted the wrong version. This version is with spotless water.
You can split the treatment between the mash and sparge but it's not really necessary in my opinion.
https://share.brewfather.app/F9toY7wUshKPYA

 

[Davegase]

For anyone who thinks I'm mad using RO or Spotless water.
I understand the argument,
why use something with the minerals removed only to add them later ?
As has been said by many, a water report is only a snapshot in time.

I went on Thames water website this morning. Searched water report for my post code. The result was dated 2023, so pointless.

When I started using Spotless water I did send sample to Murphy's just to confirm what was in it and it was okay for brewing. Having confirmed it was okay and a blank canvas and also extremely cheap.
I ask "why would I use anything else when I have an outlet very close to me"?
The image below is my spotless water report from Murphy's.

The last figure alkalinity (as CaCO3) just needs to be multiplied by 1.22 to get the figure for HCO3

 

[hoppyscotty]

This is clearly a topic you can make as complex as you like but it doesnt need to be. You dont have be be able to code to use a computer. You dont have to understand how an engine works to drive a car. Think the most important thing here is consistency and knowing your source water. I used to use Spotless too and its great, you really know with certainty what you've got once you've added your additions because you are starting from a 'blank canvass', and I never had to use acid, the ph was always spot on, so if you have a Spotless outlet near you then its about the best option you have.

Now I have a larger capacity system it's no longer feasible for me to use Spotless so I'm now doing quarterly water tests to check the consistency and variability of my tap water. The report you get from your water company is useless...better than nothing for sure, but is an averaged value over a wider area and not necessarily what you're getting from your tap. There is a difference between the M&S report and my water company published annual report that gives a min mean and max levels and the M&S report vales are all around or a bit lower than the low values on the water company report...maybe from a house the other side of the area it covers they might see their values closer to the mean or even up towards the max level. So the thing I'm focussing on now is the variability from quarter to quarter. If it proves to be pretty consistent through the year then I might scale back to test only 6 monthly or so.

But ultimately I think the idea with water chemistry is, once you have consistency, to play with the values to see how it impacts your beer. And don't be afraid to push things way beyond the arbitory target profiles which really tells you nothing more than what breweries brewed with many years ago, so if you're wanting to do a clone of a beer then you really need to match their water profile...but if you're brewing your own recipes then the world is your oyster. Go mad and develop your own water chemistry to suit your tastes.

 

[The Baron]

I will check tomorrow Agent and let you know

I used to use water from my aquarium shop must be prior to Covid and cut it half and half with tap water it was RO

I think it is Bicarbonate HCO3 and Alkalinity that are not on my reports

 

[Agentgonzo]

I think it is Bicarbonate HCO3 and Alkalinity that are not on my reports

Those are all the same thing. My report doesn't contain alkalinity either. So the question is probably "is it worth paying £35" for the residual alkalinity (you can also get test at home kits for that for about a tenner - salfert?)

What I did was:

• Assumed that alkalinity and hardness were the same for me (because for my local geology, hardness is the metal ions from the water mostly filtering through limestone, and alkalinity is mostly the carbonate ions from the same limestone)
• Ignored the people on the forum shouting at me
• Did a test brew using the harness figure from the water report and using a calculator to calculate how much acid to add
• Tested the pH of the mash, found it was on the correct 5.4 range. Felt smug that the value I'd used for alkalinity as correct (if the pH was out, I would have adjusted the value)
• Used that water report every since. Subsequent water report values have varied by maybe 5-10%, which is well within the range of "things I don't need to care about anymore"

 

[peebee]

I think it is Bicarbonate HCO3 and Alkalinity that are not on my reports

If you've got "Temporary Hardness" it often is "Total Alkalinity" (in "as CaCO3" units). They are not identical ("Temporary Hardness" will be less) but that won't stop them using it! The titration method of putting a figure on "Total Alkalinity" (endpoint pH 4.3) is easy-peasy (A-Level schoolkid stuff). Multiply by 1.22 and you have "Bicarbonate" (mg/L).

If you haven't "Temporary Hardness", convert all the major ions (>1mg/L) to "mEq/L" units (makes the sums miles easier), add up all the cations (Ca, Mg, Na, K, etc.) and subtract all the anions (Cl, SO4, NO3, etc.). What you're left with is "Total Alkalinity" in mEq/L units. (This is how the "Defuddler" does it!). You can use the same figure and call it "Bicarbonate" (in mEq/L units, it can be converted to mg/L if you want). Good fun isn't it . This is why brewers like pharting about with water stuff (makes them appear dead clever)!

 

[peebee]

... So the question is probably "is it worth paying £35" for the residual alkalinity ...

I'll see if I've still got the sums. 'Taint difficult. (Used to be on the "Defuddler" but I removed it, but I must have a copy somewhere).

 

[The Baron]

Those are all the same thing. My report doesn't contain alkalinity either. So the question is probably "is it worth paying £35" for the residual alkalinity (you can also get test at home kits for that for about a tenner - salfert?)

What I did was:

• Assumed that alkalinity and hardness were the same (because for my local geology, hardness is the metal ions from the water mostly filtering through limestone, and alkalinity is mostly the carbonate ions from the same limestone)
• Ignored the people on the forum shouting at me
• Did a test brew using the harness figure from the water report and using a calculator to calculate how much acid to add
• Tested the pH of the mash, found it was on the correct 5.4 range. Felt smug that the value I'd used for alkalinity as correct (if the pH was out, I would have adjusted the value)
• Used that water report every since. Subsequent water report values have varied by maybe 5-10%, which is well within the range of "things I don't need to care about anymore"

I have found this in my brewing box. If I test with this do I add the figure to the 2 missing boxes in the Brewers Friend water calculator

 

[The Baron]

I'll see if I've still got the sums. 'Taint difficult. (Used to be on the "Defuddler" but I removed it, but I must have a copy somewhere).

Thanks Peebee will try and get my head around it

 

[peebee]

Assumed that alkalinity and hardness were the same

Nope! "Alkalinity" is anions, "Hardness" (when not using soap scum to measure it) is cations. You can pass off "Alkalinity as "Temporary Hardness" but is not strictly true. You can use "Calcium" ion concentration to express "Hardness" (Magnesium", and others, are often insignificant enough to ignore) but convert to "as CaCO3" units.

BTW. I've not gone "soft" ... "Hardness" is still a %&*$% useless subject!

 

[Agentgonzo]

Nope! "Alkalinity" is anions, "Hardness" (when not using soap scum to measure it) is cations. You can pass off "Alkalinity as "Temporary Hardness" but is not strictly true. You can use "Calcium" ion concentration to express "Hardness" (Magnesium", and others, are often insignificant enough to ignore) but convert to "as CaCO3" units.

BTW. I've not gone "soft" ... "Hardness" is still a %&*$% useless subject!

Well then it's a good job I ignored people shouting at me!

because for my local geology, hardness is the metal ions from the water mostly filtering through limestone, and alkalinity is mostly the carbonate ions from the same limestone)

Two sides of the same coin?

 

[Agentgonzo]

View attachment 107633
I have found this in my brewing box. If I test with this do I add the figure to the 2 missing boxes in the Brewers Friend water calculator

Yes, I think so

 

[peebee]

Thanks Peebee will try and get my head around it

["Bicarbonate" mEq/L] - ( ["Calcium" mEq/L]/ 3.5 + ["Magnesium" mEq/L] / 7 )

Oh aye. That one! All in milli-equivalents per Litre, but I think all in "as CaCO3" equivalents works just the same.

You know this is all causing me to come out in a strange rash? I need to stop writing about this "Hardness" and "as CaCO3" stuff.