Canning Thread

[Leon103]

Reopening an old thread, as I'd appreciate a bit of discussion on the merits of canning and if anyone has any experience with the semiautomatic version of the cannular?

My bottle supply is really quite depleted at the moment, after giving away quite a lot at Christmas and then the OH had a work thing which I contributed 30 something bottles to. That's not a bad thing by any means, as I love giving my brewing efforts away to other people. However I do need to order some new bottles as though I do put beer in kegs, that's really just for home use and I need some way to be able to give out the beer. I appreciate bottles are reusable but in most settings I don't get the bottles back. So I'm thinking again about canning as the cans are cheaper than the bottles, can be stacked to take up less space, and are more easily transported.

One of my issues is counter pressure filling which I do at present for my bottles, I'm not sure how you stop the beer all foaming up when filling a can, is it just a case of chilling the keg for filling right down first?

Not sure if @Zee is still reading the forum but if so, did you end up getting a can seamer? Thanks.

Just ask your local pub if you can have the empty bottles.

 

[DocAnna]

Just ask your local pub if you can have the empty bottles.

I'd read before that pubs aren't able to do that anymore as it puts them at liability and risk for the bottles not being disposed of and managed to health and safety processes. Though to be fair I've never asked . There's a hotel bar around the corner from where we live and they might be lower volume, more inclined to put them aside - hmmm worth thinking about, thanks.

 

[samale]

I'd read before that pubs aren't able to do that anymore as it puts them at liability and risk for the bottles not being disposed of and managed to health and safety processes. Though to be fair I've never asked . There's a hotel bar around the corner from where we live and they might be lower volume, more inclined to put them aside - hmmm worth thinking about, thanks.

Most bars just dispose of the bottles, not sure if the big companies collect the empty bottles any more. I am sure they won't mind putting one's a side. A few homebrew as a sweetener should do the trick

 

[RoomWithABrew]

Just get a decent dedicated counterflow bottle filler, bottles, caps and you're away. I cap the bottle and get the next ready to go whilst the bottle is filling on the Williams Warn filler. Intensive activity but not messy, canning just seems expensive for startup and per unit cost of the cans. Here about 40 pence equivalent.
The best cans are about 19 to 30 litres in size easy to clean and fill dispensed through a small pipe via a tap.

 

[Zee]

Hi Anna, I have not invested in a canning machine yet. In the end I bought a load of PET bottles for giveaways and get about 65% of them back. Not ideal for the environment and world plastic issues but at least the majority are used more than once.
I still have my eye on a can seamer for future investment as we enjoy camping a lot and cans are the best option with limited storage and fridge space.
I have also increased my brewing output to 60 litres (3kegs) so longer term storage is still something I am looking at.
It’s great you’ve opened this up for discussion again and I will be interested in a review if you decide to get one.

 

[Leon103]

I'd read before that pubs aren't able to do that anymore as it puts them at liability and risk for the bottles not being disposed of and managed to health and safety processes. Though to be fair I've never asked . There's a hotel bar around the corner from where we live and they might be lower volume, more inclined to put them aside - hmmm worth thinking about, thanks.

What a load of rubbish. Just ask if you can go through their bottle bin. Bars will be paying to dispose of bottles, you will be saving them money.

 

[hoppyscotty]

I quite fancy it. I'm in a home brew consortium with a few mates so can split the cost, but on a cost basis it clearly is not going to be as cheap as bottling...though I recently made a few batches of give away beers for Christmas and bottled into plastic bottles not expecting to seem them returned and that was not particularly cheap either, though no upfront investment in a machine.

But bottling isn't exactly faff free. I ditched gravity filling with a bottling wand a while ago as that was a major faff and now do it under pressure with a counter pressure filler...much much easier and quicker - I can bottle a batch far quicker on buy own. Then you have the faff of retrieving bottles, cleaning them, storing them and the faff on bottling day because they're all a right mix and match of sizes so a pain contantly faffing with the bench capper. In fact we're in the process of buying about 150 bottles so we can standardise the bottle size and ditch all the mix and match of bottles we've collected. If you want a faff free process then kegging is the only option which is what I do for my personal consumption, we bottle for those we brew for who don't have a keg setup.

Doesn't look like too much of a faff once you have the machine dialled in....

 

[Wynne]

@DocAnna in commercial canning lines the beer is filled a low temperature and carbon dioxide is blown across the beer surface just before the top goes on. Unlike bottles, cans can’t be filled under counter-pressure. Like @Zee, I favour PET bottles for giveaways, they are cheap, light, easy to store and can easily be filled under counterpressure from a keg. I know a few breweries who use them for small pack sales of draft beer.

 

[DocAnna]

@DocAnna in commercial canning lines the beer is filled a low temperature and carbon dioxide is blown across the beer surface just before the top goes on. Unlike bottles, cans can’t be filled under counter-pressure. Like @Zee, I favour PET bottles for giveaways, they are cheap, light, easy to store and can easily be filled under counterpressure from a keg. I know a few breweries who use them for small pack sales of draft beer.

I generally am not keen on the PET bottles partly due to being a fussy bee about plastics, and they are more difficult in my experience to clean and reuse than glass. I've been reading up on this and it does seem like having the beer super cold is the answer to the foaming issue, about 0 or -1, which also reduces oxidation risk. I currently use a counter pressure bottle filler and that's likely where I'll stay for now. I have a sinking feeling that now I've really looked into this that at some stage I might progress to canning. I don't really have the space at the moment though, and I think this is something that is going to need to wait for the garage being sorted out with a utility room.

 

[RoomWithABrew]

@hoppyscotty
standardised bottles are the way to go.

 

[Druncan]

I wonder if there will be lots of canners for sale in Scotland soon? The DRS scheme is on the horizon and there is limited scope for escape. My heart goes out to our local canning brewers, the Scot Gov proposals will be another nail for many.
I get round it by using compostable 2pt cartons and £5 deposit on 5L HDPE Jerry cans that I get returned clean sanitise and re-use. Beers good for a week chilled.
But, TBH I really hate cans and bottles. It was the reason I started selling my beer in our Restaurant to stop the commercial waste and energy waste. The cost shipping the returns from here was was bonkers. I would have gladly give them away.

 

[RoomWithABrew]

What is the DRS scheme? please

 

[Thatscold]

Deposit return scheme

 

[RoomWithABrew]

Thank you, that makes sense now as to the impact on disposable yet ironically highly recyclable cans as apposed to bottles.
I visited Dunedin and the streets there are paved with glass from all of the broken beer bottles, not good at all.

 

[Druncan]

What is the DRS scheme? please

- summary below;
A producer is a drinks brand owner or an importer of drinks into the UK market. In the Regulations, a scheme article is a drink that is packaged in a single-use container made from PET plastic, glass, steel or aluminium, sized between 50ml and 3 litresl

• you fill and seal scheme containers with a drink at the point of sale to a consumer, for example, a crowler.

As a producer you must:

• register with SEPA (either directly or through the scheme administrator);
• pay the registration fee;
• charge a 20p deposit on the sale price of each scheme article you place on the Scottish market;
• arrange for collection of your empty scheme containers;
• pay a reasonable handling fee to retailers and return point operators to cover the cost of the collection and storage at return points;
• meet collection targets;
• refund deposits to customers.

Drinks producers can either discharge their obligations directly or nominate a scheme administrator to fulfil these obligations on their behalf.

Start Aug 23 ,,,,,,,
I am an enviropunk evangelist, however this will hurt small brewers disproportionately or should we just 'suck it up' and move on?

 

[DocAnna]

DRS is being consulted on in all 4 nations, is still to be worked through in Scotland so isn't planned until 2023, and applies equally to all producers in Scotland or distributors of drinks produced outside of Scotland. ie it won't disadvantage one producer over another. In addition, this is not a charge that will be made in pubs/hotels/restaurants for drink consumed on the premises - in this case the deposit and return is made by the pub. DRS may actually increase pub use over purchase from a supermarket, as the 20p fee isn't paid by the consumer in the pub.

 

[lancon]

The DRS seems to be a well meant, but ill thought through scheme. It involves a lot of red tape, it will disadvantage small producers over large/mega producers. If the purpose is to get people to recycle then use the manufacturers of the containers to put the scheme in place. There are fewer manufacturers than drink producers therefore it would/should be easier to manage the scheme.

 

[Paul7189]

I have just canned my first batch and it was a breeze. Used a basic bottle gun from brewkegtap and chilled my beer down to 0.5°C. Purged each can for 6 seconds with CO2 then filled with the gun. Cap the can on foam to displace any oxygen and seam on the machine. At no point was I anywhere near the levels of despair that I experience using my counter pressure bottle filler. The cans cost 23p each for 440ml and they come in a box that holds 24 cans so I then store them back in the box. If anyone is in the north west (west Cheshire) then you’re welcome to have a go with the seamer if you want.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

. If anyone is in the north west (west Cheshire) then you’re welcome to have a go with the seamer if you want

That's a very generous offer l hope someone takes you up on it I would love to see one in action.

 

[DocAnna]

So I have a bit of an admission and something I've been keeping a bit quiet. There are fairly significant excuses including children's birthdays, slicing my thumb and working public holidays. I have though also been a bit embarrassed about letting on about something I've purchased, set up and have been enjoying using. However, in a day or so it would have been obvious as I've sent some beers out with the new kit. Rather obviously given the thread title, I've gone and bought myself a can seamer, and spoiler alert... it's absafriggin brilliant .

I'd ordered it to arrive while we were in Paris, not particularly planned but it did mean eldest daughter had the task of lugging the hefty box in to the garage for our return. It is really quite heavy and I've been using it on the garage floor other than for calibration -more on that in a mo. Geterbrewed provide the cannular with a power supply which makes them a good deal compared to other suppliers where this is separate, and it's an oomphing big psu at that, though with quite a short mains cord. Lifting it out of the box is no easy feat on its own.

Before doing anything properly with it you are advised in the instructions to check the calibration, which I am so glad I did since it was off, despite it supposedly being calibrated at the factory. This was a gulp moment as I'd really hoped it might be plug and play. Removing the top casing to access the rollers involves rather a large number of hex machine screws which exposes the flywheel and allows this to be turned by hand to check the chuck and seam rollers don't touch during a full cycle. It's fairly obvious if they do since one of the seam rollers will rotate or stick when it comes into contact with the rotating chuck. The flywheel is pretty heavy though.

Calibrating it does need a set of feeler gauges, you can't do it by eye. I picked up a set at screwfix: Hilka Pro-Craft 12700132 32-Blade Feeler Gauge however they are too wide to fit into the tiny gap that needs calibrating on the first roller so I needed to cut the gauge narrower which even though they are metal was easily be done with normal scissors. A few hours of careful and at times frustrated fiddling later and it was sorted - though I would have been considerably quicker if I'd used the 0.05mm measure rather than the 0.05 inch measure I did the first time

! Sort of fun and satisfying to do, sort of phew it worked at the end of it. Some heart in mouth moments when I was questioning my sanity in thinking I could get it working. Getting the roller to the closest part of rotation was not at all easy and I really recommend anyone trying this to print out the instructions since I really did need to refer to them a lot! https://www.kegland.com.au/media/pdf/Semi Automatic Cannular Instruction Manual.pdf

I did check the seam by cutting a can seamed on it but without a micrometer to measure the fold properly it was quite difficult to asses. My eyesight isn't what it once was, and I ended up wearing two pairs of glasses in order to magnify and view close enough to check it. In the end it certainly seemed ok to hold pressure. Those who receive parcels in the next few days can let me know if they arrive ok!

I'll post tomorrow on the issues involved with filling the cans, which has been a bit mixed but I'm there ok now, and it's an awful lot easier than bottling.