Brewzilla dead - burnt out socket

[tigertim]

So TigerTim what plug do we use on uprated AIO's etc?.
Where do we get these plugs too

I think the accepted plug types for loads exceeding 10A tends to be IEC 60309. They also afford a degree of ingress protection which is useful in an environment where they're likely to get splashed.

They can be acquired from many places; Screwfix, Amazon, TLC Direct etc and can often be found under MK's trademark "Commando". There are many different configurations for different voltages and loads, but you'd likely be after 16A single-phase 240V such as the below :

https://www.screwfix.com/p/abb-16a-2p-e-switched-socket-250v/4415fhttps://www.screwfix.com/p/abb-16a-2p-e-connector-250v/3967x
However, the socket would need to be installed by a qualified electrician who interprets the regulation I mentioned earlier in the correct way

Also worth pointing out that these connectors are not fused, unlike the domestic BS1363 plug tops, so care must be taken to ensure the flex is rated appropriately (ideally a minimum of 2.5mm^2).

 

[The Baron]

So the crunch question can we run such as the 65ltr AIO with 3500watts on a standard plug and household circuit as they are rated to 2400w max in real terms as most members and me included have a little knowledge but obviously not enough

 

[tigertim]

So the crunch question can we run such as the 65ltr AIO with 3500watts on a standard plug and household circuit as they are rated to 2400w max in real terms as most members and me included have a little knowledge but obviously not enough

To be honest, the only watertight safe way to specify the connection type is using the nameplate values from the manufacturer on their specifications. If it says 3500 watts on the specifications then that's the load you need to provision for.

You can also take a cue from the connectors they've installed on the unit at manufacture. If it's an IEC C13/C14 which has a maximum rating of 10A then it may have a maximum demand of 10A so should be fine to run on a domestic plug/socket (BS1363). However, if they've used an IEC C19/C20 which has a maximum rating of 16A (as in the case of the OP's system) then it may have a maximum demand of 16A so it would be advisable to use connector types which are able to take a greater load than the BS1363.

IEC C13/C14 (10A Max)

IEC C19/C20 (16A Max)

 

[tigertim]

As a bit of background, the reason why it's a good idea to underrate BS1363 is because many of these plugs and sockets have been kicking around since the 1960s and the brass contacts become oxidised with age. The socket contacts are also sprung to grip the pins, and the contacts of sockets which have plugs inserted much of the time can become lazy with age. All of this causes impedance which therefore causes heat when passing current.

Add to this the fact that, over the last couple of decades, all sockets aren't created equally; cost savings and grey market imports from some countries have meant the quality of many accessories which purport to meet the BS fall shockingly short. I've seen many a cheap 4-way socket strip under a desk which has become charred and melted due to somebody plugging a fan heater in.

 

[MashBag]

Hi

I just put my Brewzilla 65l gen 4 on to pre-heat the mash water but almost immediately there was fizzing and smoke from around the power socket and the circuit tripped.

I unplugged the lead and discovered this:

View attachment 92903

I think what has happened is that, with the proximity of the Brewzilla to an often open back door during the recent heavy rain, water has somehow got in and caused the problem. If so, I'm thinking I might be able to get away with replacing the lead and socket. Is the socket a spare part that its possible to buy and does anyone in the UK stock them?

(Also, is anyone in the Newcastle area who's comfortable playing with this sort of stuff willing to help (and by "help" I probably mean do it all for a reasonable fee))?

Might be worth contacting Symon ([email protected])

I think they have a collect & fix service £50 +parts +p&p

 

[MashBag]

So the crunch question can we run such as the 65ltr AIO with 3500watts on a standard plug and household circuit as they are rated to 2400w max in real terms as most members and me included have a little knowledge but obviously not enough

The short answer is no. The BZ 65 is 3500 watts. So it does require an additional circuit. The suppliers also make a big mention of this at point of sale.

A good rule of the thumb, much over 2500w needs some thought.

 

[Consett26]

Might be worth contacting Symon ([email protected])

I think they have a collect & fix service £50 +parts +p&p

Many thanks for this. I may yet be contacting them.

Just to clarify - the damage happened on a dedicated high amp (16?) circuit installed specifically for the purpose.

I managed to source a replacement socket - C19 as has been pointed out - and replaced that and the lead. Of the two the socket was actually the easier to replace. Finding a c20 to commando lead that didn't need a second mortgage was much harder.

It was a partial success. The unit switched on without melting or frying anything but immediately complained that there was a temperature sensor failure.

So it looks like the damage may extend beyond the obvious and I guess I have to make a judgement about how much its worth pursuing a repair versus replacing it with a new one, which a tax refund brings into the realms of possibility

 

[The Baron]

The short answer is no. The BZ 65 is 3500 watts. So it does require an additional circuit. The suppliers also make a big mention of this at point of sale.

A good rule of the thumb, much over 2500w needs some thought.

Thats what I thought MashBag so really all these larger units people are buying do need some further domestic electrics beyond the norm.
Wonder how many are running them on standard sockets though?

 

[tigertim]

Finding a c20 to commando lead that didn't need a second mortgage was much harder.

They're commonly used in IT environments for connecting uninterruptible power supplies and other equipment, so they'll likely have the IT tax applied to them. If it's a critical part of the IT infrastructure, the suppliers can hold customers to ransom.

 

[Consett26]

Take a pic on the socket for me.

I don't think this is rain, I would bet you have used this a few times. It has overheated, but recovered a few times until it failed.

This is fixable.

Sorry - missed this earlier. Here you go. A blurry one before I removed it and second one I've just taken

I have used it a few times, yes, but it just seems a coincidence that this happens the first time I use after it was sat by the back door of the garage with the socket (and plugged in lead) pointing at the open door while it was chucking it down. The floor around it was soaking at the time, although it is true to say that the floor has dried out since

 

[RoomWithABrew]

The brewzilla and guten 65 and 70 litre respectively are Australian designed.
We have dedicated 16 amp plugs and sockets on dedicated circuits. Usually to laundries etc. These brew units come so they will only connect into 16A sockets.
Having taken my guten apart to remove the controller and fit SMARTPid controller the exchange of the power supply cable and plug is straightforward.
That being said even with a multi step mash my unit is never running at 100% power for long during the mash. Coming up to boil it is at 100% but at boil with steam condenser it runs at between 25 and 35 % depending on batch size.
I have not noticed any cables or plugs getting warm.
Sensors are easy to change but do recalibrate when you put a new one in.
I would buy a spare at the same time.

 

[MashBag]

I keep a couple of obvious spares.. It is nice to limit aborted brewdays or am I just paranoid

 

[RoomWithABrew]

I keep a couple of obvious spares.. It is nice to limit aborted brewdays or am I just paranoid

Sensoriable I think is the term.
Lost a washer for camlock one day that was a nuisance.

 

[kenstel]

Absolutely. I think it's this...

https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/iec-...-_-7769129&matchtype=&&gad_source=1&gclsrc=ds

So 16amp (just in spec 230v +\–12% does not give a lot of margin)

UK & European electricity was harmonised in 2003. In the UK electricity should be supplied @230V - 6% +10% and @ 50Hz +/-1%, and at up to 132kV +/- 6%, and over 132kV +/- 10% (Electricity Safety, Quality and Continuity Regulations 2002).

This means the domestic voltage is allowed to vary between 206.2V - 253V quite legally.

At the lower voltage, 3500W will slightly exceed 16A. At 230V the current will be just over 15A, so the plug is already close to its working limit (I'm assuming 15A was the design spec).

A large proportion of imported plugs and leads are only just up to UK/EC standards, and another proportion are not.

I worked for a company from a country I won't mention who wanted to know how to get the CE mark on their products. I told them how to submit for tests, get the results verified and submit the paperwork and wait for approval. Their response was to ask why they couldn't self certify (ie say the product matched regulations) and put the logo on the products.

Its important to note that bumps, bangs, drops and general (mis) use can, overtime, loosen contacts and increase resistance. Continued running at high loads can lead to gradual breakdown of the plastic body which will allow movement in the connector and cause high resistance. The localised high resistance causes high temperatures.

From a quick look at the pictures, I would say that the plug has just decayed over time exacerbated by slight overloading due to supply fluctuations. If the lead is OK, and the internal connectors/circuit are OK, I expect replacing the plug will suffice, especially if you've used it OK for some time. It's important you verify that the circuit is OK and not showing any signs of burning.

Unfortunately as someone alluded to earlier, the regulations can be interpreted in different ways, and if you ask an electrician about your setup you may well get a long debate about his interpretations and warnings of various disaster scenarios that will make you want to disconnect all electrical items and wear tinfoil on your head.

However, the people here

Electrics UK

Are quite friendly and you'll get mostly good advice with only the occasional disaster scenario devil's advocate post.

If it were me, as it's already on a dedicated circuit (with appropriate protection I assume) and assuming it's performed satisfactory many times, and there's no sign of over heating in the boiler internals, I'd replace the damaged socket and plug with a good quality ones of the same type and monitor for overheating.

If you're OK to replace the boiler socket yourself, you can get a lead with commando plug to C19 plug like this (just one example)
16 Amp Commando To IEC C19 Extension | DCDI

Note though, that this kind of setup is working close to its limit, so periodic inspection is important.

Long term, I'd consider wiring the boiler direct with suitable rated flex and isolator and leaving out the plugs /sockets. Or, at least, wiring the boiler to a commando plug and leaving out the C19 plug. As per Tim's pictures.

 

[MashBag]

I think people should run a boil as a programmed temp, not a "turn everything on" . That would help the load no end.

 

[kenstel]

I think people should run a boil as a programmed temp, not a "turn everything on" . That would help the load no end.

Absolutely. You wouldn't constantly run your car at maximum revs.

The problem is, this system is running close to the maximum with little capacity left. Over time, if plugs, sockets leads etc have been bought on the cheap, you can expect problems.

Also like to add that I missed the earlier posts that the socket has been replaced.

Replacing the lead and plug is simple and with quality parts might solve that problem but obviously if the unit is playing up that's another problem.

The circuit needs to be inspected for signs of overheating from the socket.

 

[Agentgonzo]

I think people should run a boil as a programmed temp, not a "turn everything on" . That would help the load no end.

Agreed. Commercial recommendation is for 5-10% boil off for an hour boil (which equates to 1-2L in a 20L batch. I turn my grainfather down to 50-75% power (2kW heating element) to achieve this with a rolling boil. I've seen so many posts on forums (especially Americans where they use gas boilers) boiling the bejesus out of their wort and losing 25% of their volume to boil off. It's just a waste of energy (unless you're actually trying to concentrate the wort for a stronger beer) and negatively impacts the wort by scorching and thermal stress etc (and a variety of other very complicated brewing science topics)

 

[MashBag]

In the same vein, I think people get fixated on a "vigourous boil", when what you need is a "good simmer".

I have extensively tried both and it makes no difference. Partly because on another forum, people went on & on about it, so I had to prove it for myself.

Myth busted.

Edit: typo

 

[Agentgonzo]

In the sand [same] vein, I think people get fixated on a "vigourous boil", when what you need is a "good simmer".

This is where I think the situation originates. Brewing professionals/research say "vigourous boil", but there is no defined standard for what a vigourous boil is (or easy way to describe it), so the internet echo chamber takes over and it just gets bigger and bigger until it's like a volcano. A large brewery's "vigourous boil" can easily describe what a naive and over-excited homebrewer might describe as a "good simmer", so they just crank up that dial. Then tell everyone else to do the same.

 

[The Baron]

Me too Mashbag my boil is a gentle roll which I find is enough also to counter the turning down of the aio's for the boil unless you use the lower element which most are dual elements it will still use higher power but just comes on and off less frequent at higher power and does not reduce the element power is how I understand it so a 1900w plus the 500w element are still that just come on to heat up to the temp set and then go off unless somebody knows different