Boil Times and how to Know What to Use

[Sadfield]

When running a business, there are many many considerations, profit being just one.

It's interesting my post when quoting has removed the last six words that make that very point. Breweries could reduce the boil time for profit, they don't. Why could that be

 

[MashBag]

It's interesting my post when quoting has removed the last six words that make that very point. Breweries could reduce the boil time for profit, they don't. Why could that be

As that post didn't end with a question mark I assume its rhetorical, you know the answer and are not being an ass

 

[Twostage]

With a shorter boil there is a temptation to add before hot break..

Don't...

The opportunity increases considerably for a messy boilover toffee cannon fountain... And some very very rude words.

Adding hops before the boil around 95c stops them causing a boil over.

 

[MashBag]

That's interesting. Is that because you are getting the hop isomerisation out of the way at a lower temp?

Which begs the question at what temp can you start?

 

[jof]

That's interesting. Is that because you are getting the hop isomerisation out of the way at a lower temp?

Which begs the question at what temp can you start?

Is that a cue to start experimenting with not quite boil beer?
Hold for 60-90 minutes at 95C.

 

[Stu's Brews]

Is that a cue to start experimenting with not quite boil beer?
Hold for 60-90 minutes at 95C.

Technically you can not boil the wort at all: https://www.brewingnordic.com/new-nordic-beer/raw-ale-brewing-techniques-and-recipes/

 

[MashBag]

Is that a cue to start experimenting with not quite boil beer?
Hold for 60-90 minutes at 95C.

No, but I like your thinking.

 

[Sadfield]

Technically you can not boil the wort at all: https://www.brewingnordic.com/new-nordic-beer/raw-ale-brewing-techniques-and-recipes/

So, true. Nice, but different.

Going back the the food analogy. Steak tartare and beef carpacchio are lovely, but don't taste like beef bourguignon. Raw dough doesn't taste like bread. Bread doesn't taste like toast. Brewing is just another form of cooking, and beer from 30' boiled wort is different from 60' boiled, and 90', again. It's not rocket science, you pump high levels of heat energy into anything edible for 30 minutes, it causes change.

 

[dad_of_jon]

So, true. Nice, but different.

Going back the the food analogy. Steak tartare and beef carpacchio are lovely, but don't taste like beef bourguignon. Raw dough doesn't taste like bread. Bread doesn't taste like toast. Brewing is just another form of cooking, and beer from 30' boiled wort is different from 60' boiled, and 90', again. It's not rocket science, you pump high levels of heat energy into anything edible for 30 minutes, it causes change.

to quote teal'c - "indeed"

For me reduce the volume and time you boil are key because I don't have the time more that can't keep the gas/leccy on.
I used DME as well as grains and it was more than good enough for me

https://blog.brewdog.com/blog/homebrewdog-winner (I didn't win but it shows you can produce grat beers with extract and LOW boil times)

Malt & Sugar:
2kg very dark dme
2kg medium dme
500g wme
250g dark candi sugar

Grains:
250g choc
250g carafa special III
250g roasted barley
500g dark crystal

steeping in 2litres chase spring water
strike temp 76.8 - mash/steep temp 65
rinsed with 2 litres water at 50 degrees
added 4 litres to boil
and 4kg dme and candi sugar boiled for 15 min
50g mandarina bavaria in 1 litre of water separate 15 min boil
all pitched into fv and final 500g WME stirred in.
topped up to 22 litres(determined to end up with 20 litres of beer) = 60 x 33cl bottles!

Mj belgian ale yeast rehydrated in 150ml 30deg water
pitched at 29 degrees - fermenting at 22
og 1090 - fg 1011.
10.37%

tastes very drinkable out of the sample jar, rich chocolate hints with dark fruits and sherry hints. Super now!
fabulous level of sweetness - not sickly balanced with a light bitterness. superb.
what a fantastic dessert beer :-)
primed with 150g sugar

 

[Bzee]

Ive been doing half hour boils for years and would love for a pro brewer to explain why they do it for an hour in the factory and if any experimented and changed thier minds when enery prices recently went nuts

 

[foxy]

Ive been doing half hour boils for years and would love for a pro brewer to explain why they do it for an hour in the factory and if any experimented and changed thier minds when enery prices recently went nuts

You can't get much better than reading Tim O'Rourke's technical papers, 35 years as a Master Brewer, and later years teaching brewers.
There are quite a few of his papers online something worthwhile downloading.
Also, have a look at the coagulated protein you get from a 30-minute boil and compare it to a 60-minute boil.
https://cdn.imagearchive.com/aussie...75832-02---The-function-of-wort-boiling11.pdf

 

[Birdsnestbrewery]

I use 30 min boil for one or two of my recipes. I took advice from David Heath's video on the subject.

 

[MashBag]

Ive been doing half hour boils for years and would love for a pro brewer to explain why they do it for an hour in the factory and if any experimented and changed thier minds when enery prices recently went nuts

It is widely accepted that organisations change very very slowly, small teams and individuals are far more agile.

It's also worthy of note, they are making significant investment in grains every brew and are aiming for an absolutely identical result... They also have to pay for the waste.

We are punting a fiver in grains and need get a consistent but not identical brew, because we are the only customer. If we get it wrong we still have choices.

For the thinking brewer "The big boys do it like that" is very rarely a single reason to adopt their methods.

 

[Jahfish]

I know David Heath has gone with a shorter boil time. I'll look into this. Is it only relevant for pales, and particularly ones where the hopping is more for flavour than bittering?

 

[hoppyscotty]

Well a conversation with someone who was a lifetime career brewer with the big macro breweries and has all the academic qualifications as well as Phd, maybe two, said that the big macro breweries use their lab analysis to determine the exact boil time for the brew depending on what they're after... so they're analysing for the boil off of the undesirable compounds and all the other things that you might imagine and lots of things that wont occur to you unless you work in the industry.

On the smaller micro brewery scale where they wont have the same resources as the big multi billion dollar macro breweries it will be a case of....x minute boils because thats what I've always done.

Also I guess there might even be a practical element to it too....if you're a production brewery then you might need to do two or three brews to fill a fermenter, so as you're boiling one batch you're mashing and lautering the next, so shortening your boil is not really giving you a benefit in your process flow and I cant imagine with larger insulated kettles that you're saving huge amount of energy by shortening your boil..these things tend to be steam jacketed kettles, so the energy is in the steam generators with the steam use for the kettle and the mash tun and with the much larger volumes they are already pretty efficient.

Certainly for my homebrew I've moved most of my recipes down to 30 min boils with no detectable negative impacts. The only thing I'm going to start monitoring is post boil ph as I've recently learned that by manipulating that you can impact overall flavour, so no matter how long the boil managing post boil ph might be something I start to keep an eye on.

 

[Agentgonzo]

Also I guess there might even be a practical element to it too....if you're a production brewery then you might need to do two or three brews to fill a fermenter, so as you're boiling one batch you're mashing and lautering the next, so shortening your boil is not really giving you a benefit in your process flow and I cant imagine with larger insulated kettles that you're saving huge amount of energy by shortening your boil..these things tend to be steam jacketed kettles, so the energy is in the steam generators with the steam use for the kettle and the mash tun and with the much larger volumes they are already pretty efficient.

Plus, if you are shortening the boil, you'll likely need to add more hops to achieve the same level of bitterness, so you're just replacing one cost (electricity) with a different one (more hops). For commercial breweries where there is a decent risk associated with any change, the risk probably isn't worth any (small) potential savings.

 

[foxy]

I use 30 min boil for one or two of my recipes. I took advice from David Heath's video on the subject.

Hardly an authority on brewing, it wasn't so long ago he was asking for advice on how to brew kits on this forum.

 

[MashBag]

Well a conversation with someone who was a lifetime career brewer with the big macro breweries and has all the academic qualifications as well as Phd, maybe two, said that the big macro breweries use their lab analysis to determine the exact boil time for the brew depending on what they're after... so they're analysing for the boil off of the undesirable compounds and all the other things that you might imagine and lots of things that wont occur to you unless you work in the industry.

On the smaller micro brewery scale where they wont have the same resources as the big multi billion dollar macro breweries it will be a case of....x minute boils because thats what I've always done.

Also I guess there might even be a practical element to it too....if you're a production brewery then you might need to do two or three brews to fill a fermenter, so as you're boiling one batch you're mashing and lautering the next, so shortening your boil is not really giving you a benefit in your process flow and I cant imagine with larger insulated kettles that you're saving huge amount of energy by shortening your boil..these things tend to be steam jacketed kettles, so the energy is in the steam generators with the steam use for the kettle and the mash tun and with the much larger volumes they are already pretty efficient.

Certainly for my homebrew I've moved most of my recipes down to 30 min boils with no detectable negative impacts. The only thing I'm going to start monitoring is post boil ph as I've recently learned that by manipulating that you can impact overall flavour, so no matter how long the boil managing post boil ph might be something I start to keep an eye on.

Had to reply. Couldn't do a double likely.

Bang on and nicely put.

 

[MashBag]

Plus, if you are shortening the boil, you'll likely need to add more hops to achieve the same level of bitterness, so you're just replacing one cost (electricity) with a different one (more hops). For commercial breweries where there is a decent risk associated with any change, the risk probably isn't worth any (small) potential savings.

.. And if the heat /energy is recovered its even less of a saving.

 

[Sadfield]

Yep, it tastes different. This reply below from the comment section directly contradicts the videos message, tradition matters. What's an old style? Bitter? stout? mild? WCIPA? Helles? Pilsner?

Are breweries slow to catch on to new methods, or are they preserving the integrity of their product, and maintaining qualitive standards?

There's a lot of nonsense in that video about better hop flavour in a thirty minute boil that ignores the fact that the same hop schedule can be employed in the last 30 minutes of a longer boil. Whilst keeping the advantages of a longer boil.