Beginners Guide to Water Treatment (plus links to more advanced water treatment in post #1)

[strange-steve]

@strange-steve thanks for all this thread - it was very helpful on the weissbier. What alkalinity is suitable for a dunkel weissbier? Using your rough guide, I'd say it's not a 'black beer', so maybe treat it as a brown one?

Going to get the calcium up for this one!

I would say it's a brown beer, so alkalinity around 75ppm or so. What is your starting alkalinity?

 

[Fritzpoll85]

I would say it's a brown beer, so alkalinity around 75ppm or so. What is your starting alkalinity?

I am going to recheck before calculating the treatments, but last brew was about 166ppm

 

[NormanHurst]

Thank you @strange-steve for this and the other threads. Fascinating reading and very well explained. Chapeau. I started reading the thread absent mindedly on Saturday morning. By Sunday I'd built an excel calculator to try and show I'd understood some of it (any of it!) and I've just completed the two Salifert tests on Monday evening. My water is every bit as hard as I thought. Now to work out the best way to deal with it. May involve Tesco.

 

[NormanHurst]

Thank you @strange-steve for this and the other threads. Fascinating reading and very well explained. Chapeau. I started reading the thread absent mindedly on Saturday morning. By Sunday I'd built an excel calculator to try and show I'd understood some of it (any of it!) and I've just completed the two Salifert tests on Monday evening. My water is every bit as hard as I thought. Now to work out the best way to deal with it. May involve Tesco.

A quick question for @strange-steve if happy to help. Way back in the mists of this thread you mention in passing that the calcium reading is often c.40% of the alkalinity.

My readings were 140 for calcium and 205.8 for alkalinity - so just under 70%.

Is this within tolerable bounds or do the numbers suggest I screwed up the tests somewhere?

 

[strange-steve]

A quick question for @strange-steve if happy to help. Way back in the mists of this thread you mention in passing that the calcium reading is often c.40% of the alkalinity.

My readings were 140 for calcium and 205.8 for alkalinity - so just under 70%.

Is this within tolerable bounds or do the numbers suggest I screwed up the tests somewhere?

Don't worry about that 40% it's just an estimate that assumes all the alkalinity is from calcium carbonate. I always recommend people test it for themselves, because it might not be terribly accurate as in your case. Now that you know your alkalinity is quite high, get yourself some CRS and you'll definitely see an improvement in your pale beers.

 

[NormanHurst]

Don't worry about that 40% it's just an estimate that assumes all the alkalinity is from calcium carbonate. I always recommend people test it for themselves, because it might not be terribly accurate as in your case. Now that you know your alkalinity is quite high, get yourself some CRS and you'll definitely see an improvement in your pale beers.

Thank you Steve. CRS arrived today so I'll do a few tests to check it's strength and my skills in running the tests. Onwards and upwards!

 

[HarryFlatters]

Hey folks.

I'm looking to brew a Dunkel in the next few days and I'm confused by which water profile I should be looking at - it's technically a lager, but it's also dark and malty, so I'm not sure what I should be looking at.

Any advice?

 

[strange-steve]

@HarryFlatters what grain bill are you using?

 

[HarryFlatters]

Hi @strange-steve , grain bill is as follows...

FERMENTABLES:
2.5 kg - Pilsner (50%)
2 kg - Munich Light (40%)
0.25 kg - Melanoidin (5%)
0.25 kg - Carafa II (5%)

 

[strange-steve]

Hi @strange-steve , grain bill is as follows...

FERMENTABLES:
2.5 kg - Pilsner (50%)
2 kg - Munich Light (40%)
0.25 kg - Melanoidin (5%)
0.25 kg - Carafa II (5%)

From memory for my dunkel I went for about 80ppm calcium, chloride forward (no gypsum at all), and around 60ppm alkalinity, however I found the mash pH was higher than expected. I don't think the Munich malt I used (Weyermann) is as acidic as its colour might suggest. With that in mind I would lower the alkalinity a bit more, maybe around 40ppm or so.

On another note, your recipe looks a bit light on Munich malt for a dunkel, I went 100% Munich apart from 100g of carafa special.

 

[HarryFlatters]

Thanks @strange-steve - I'm trying to use up what I've got and then put in a bigger order later on to build up stock, hence the 40% Munich.

I have some biscuit malt that I could add to up the toasty/bready notes... I'll have a think about it.

 

[chuffer]

what happens if you use Calcium chloride at a greater rate than 0.3g per litre? I've just used the water treatment calculator and it's suggesting I use 12.6g of CaCl for a 27L batch (porter)...but 0.3g per litre max would limit me to 8g or so? So the water treatment calc is telling me to exceed the max rates suggested in this thread - anyone else experienced this?

 

[strange-steve]

what happens if you use Calcium chloride at a greater rate than 0.3g per litre? I've just used the water treatment calculator and it's suggesting I use 12.6g of CaCl for a 27L batch (porter)...but 0.3g per litre max would limit me to 8g or so? So the water treatment calc is telling me to exceed the max rates suggested in this thread - anyone else experienced this?

Just ignore that bit about a maximum of 0.3g/l, since writing that I've had a bit of a change of opinion based on further reading and more importantly personal experience. I'm actually going to request a mod makes a couple of edits for me. Depending on your starting profile I would probably be happy to go up to about 0.5g/l which would add around 140ppm calcium and 250ppm chloride.

 

[chuffer]

Just ignore that bit about a maximum of 0.3g/l, since writing that I've had a bit of a change of opinion based on further reading and more importantly personal experience. I'm actually going to request a mod makes a couple of edits for me. Depending on your starting profile I would probably be happy to go up to about 0.5g/l which would add around 140ppm calcium and 250ppm chloride.

Brilliant - cheers Steve!

 

[conspiccus]

I am planning to brew an 18L batch of rye stout. I am using BIAB so was planning to use 34L strike water (no sparge). I have soft water and my water profile (obtained from the city) is as follows (in ppm):
Ca2+: 18.9
Mg2+: 11.5
Na+: 11.4
Cl-: 18.3
SO42-: 25.4
HCO3-: 57.8

I am trying to match Dublin water, which is (found on Brewfather):
Ca2+: 120
Mg2+: 4
Na+: 12
Cl-: 19
SO42-: 53
HCO3-: 319

So to match this water I was thinking of adding 7g CaCO3 and 2g CaSO4. This would get me to the desired SO42-, Ca2+ and HCO3-, but my mash pH is predicted at 5.85 (all calculated on BrewFather). My grain bill is 4kg Pale, 0.5kg crystal (40L), 0.5kg rye and 0.5kg black malt. I have read that these darker malts can bring the pH down by 0.5-1.0 and was thinking this would get me to the correct mash pH.

I am wondering if this is too bold an assumption to make and if I need to add any CRS as well. I have also read that using CaCO3 is generally a bad idea and am wondering if I should scrap this altogether. I am very much a noob to brewing and so any comments on my recipe would be much appreciated, thanks!

 

[strange-steve]

@conspiccus
First of all your water is pretty decent as a starting point for adjustment for most styles, it's very similar to mine actually.

That being said aiming for regional profiles isn't the best way of selecting a water profile. For a start you don't know what treatment the breweries there might be doing, secondly it might not be possible depending on your starting profile, plus it may not be particularly suited to your taste.

Personally I would never use that Dublin profile. The reason your calculator is predicting a high pH is because the bicarbonate is way too high, try dropping it to about 140 ppm. Next I would ditch the calcium carbonate and use sodium bicarbonate to raise the alkalinity (you'll need about 3.5 - 4g). The sodium from this will be a good thing in a stout. Then I would add a load of calcium chloride, probably about 13g, plus a touch of gypsum to balance it out a bit, maybe about 3g. That would give the following profile:

150ppm calcium
140ppm bicarbonate
40ppm sodium
75ppm sulphate
220ppm chloride
0.3 : 1 ratio

I would be pretty happy with that I think, and it should give a decent mash pH.

Edit to add: with regards to your recipe, from my experience with rye malt it's quite subtle even in pale beers, I would bump it up closer to 20% if you want to taste it. Also that's quite a lot of black malt, probably more than I'd want to use.

 

[conspiccus]

@conspiccus
First of all your water is pretty decent as a starting point for adjustment for most styles, it's very similar to mine actually.

That being said aiming for regional profiles isn't the best way of selecting a water profile. For a start you don't know what treatment the breweries there might be doing, secondly it might not be possible depending on your starting profile, plus it may not be particularly suited to your taste.

Personally I would never use that Dublin profile. The reason your calculator is predicting a high pH is because the bicarbonate is way too high, try dropping it to about 140 ppm. Next I would ditch the calcium carbonate and use sodium bicarbonate to raise the alkalinity (you'll need about 3.5 - 4g). The sodium from this will be a good thing in a stout. Then I would add a load of calcium chloride, probably about 13g, plus a touch of gypsum to balance it out a bit, maybe about 3g. That would give the following profile:

150ppm calcium
140ppm bicarbonate
40ppm sodium
75ppm sulphate
220ppm chloride
0.3 : 1 ratio

I would be pretty happy with that I think, and it should give a decent mash pH.

Edit to add: with regards to your recipe, from my experience with rye malt it's quite subtle even in pale beers, I would bump it up closer to 20% if you want to taste it. Also that's quite a lot of black malt, probably more than I'd want to use.

Wow, thank you so much that's really helpful!

 

[BrucetheFish]

Afternoon,

I followed your original guide which is excellent thanks ! I got the salifert kits for alkalinity and calcium. My alkalinity was 205 ppm and the calcium was 130.

i adjusted accordingly at the weekend for a session pale ale recipe i was doing and all is good.

I'm going to attempt a Neipa style brew and was reading about the chloride to sulfate ratio recommendations and higher cloride level is better.

Might be a silly question but how to you find out the chloride and sulfate readings for your water ?

 

[strange-steve]

i adjusted accordingly at the weekend for a session pale ale recipe i was doing and all is good.

You should see a good improvement in flavour just from reducing that alkalinity

Might be a silly question but how to you find out the chloride and sulfate readings for your water ?

You can usually find those values from your water supplier. If you go to their website you can often download a full report by entering your postcode.

 

[BrucetheFish]

Thanks got the report and attached it.

Is it the 'mean value' i should be reading ? So chloride 26 and sulphate 33.1 ?