Beginners Guide to Water Treatment (plus links to more advanced water treatment in post #1)

[strange-steve]

Oops, I just read the above, and with due apology, I will refrain from further comment within this thread.

No need to apologise, I'm enjoying reading all your comments, they're perhaps just a bit too heavy for this thread. I wonder would it be possible for one of the mods @Chippy_Tea to create a separate thread for this discussion with Lee Brown which began from post no 680?

 

[Lee Brown]

In that case reread the OP and follow the instructions without getting yourself bogged down with details. Once you have a good grasp on the basics then you can look at the more advanced stuff.

Thanks, strange-Steve. My apologies for the way this has gone. I’m still perplexed. It would seem that there is a looooot of controversy around what is the right way to do all this. Is there ever really a simple way? This is more complex than Brexit politics[/QUOTE]

 

[Lee Brown]

In that case reread the OP and follow the instructions without getting yourself bogged down with details. Once you have a good grasp on the basics then you can look at the more advanced stuff.

By the way, your OP is fantastic. Do you think that you might consider updating the acid dosing chart to include phosphoric acid (in particular 75% stuff!).

 

[Lee Brown]

I have a good think about all of the advice and I am going to go down the line of simplifying it all. I’ve been trying to be too scientific.

So, once I get my Salifert kit I will measure how much alkalinity is removed for say 1ml in 10 litres and then scale from there.

secondly, I will then pretreat any batch of water with the required dose of acid and half a Campden tablet, to reach the profile (alkalinity) of the type of beer I am brewing.

I will split the water between mash and sparge. Season mash to taste with doses of Sulphate and CaCl as per Murphy’s guidelines and strange-Steve’s recommendations in OP.

Over time I will learn by trial and error what is enough or too much.

Let the journey begin, Samways Gamgee

 

[strange-steve]

It would seem that there is a looooot of controversy around what is the right way to do all this.

You're not wrong there, the more you learn about water treatment the more you'll see just how conflicting all the advice seems to be. Just wait till you find out about the differences between UK and US brewers' advice on this subject

Do you think that you might consider updating the acid dosing chart to include phosphoric acid (in particular 75% stuff!).

Probably not to be honest. I've never used it, nor am I ever likely to, and my advice to most people would be to use CRS instead.

I have a good think about all of the advice and I am going to go down the line of simplifying it all. I’ve been trying to be too scientific.

So, once I get my Salifert kit I will measure how much alkalinity is removed for say 1ml in 10 litres and then scale from there.

secondly, I will then pretreat any batch of water with the required dose of acid and half a Campden tablet, to reach the profile (alkalinity) of the type of beer I am brewing.

I will split the water between mash and sparge. Season mash to taste with doses of Sulphate and CaCl as per Murphy’s guidelines and strange-Steve’s recommendations in OP.

Over time I will learn by trial and error what is enough or too much.

Let the journey begin, Samways Gamgee

I think this is a very good idea :thumba:
Don't get me wrong, I'm not discouraging people from gaining a better scientific understanding of this, I just think it's important to grasp the basics before delving into what can be an incredibly complex subject.

 

[Lee Brown]

Thanks again. I may make a few duffers along the way, but eventually I’ll find what works.

All the advice has been enlightening. Ive recently also been using temp control too and this has made a decent difference. So the water chemistry addition will hopefully just take it a notch up again.

 

[pottsworth]

Probably not to be honest. I've never used it, nor am I ever likely to, and my advice to most people would be to use CRS instead.

Looking at CRS on home brew shops, they all say it affects chlorides and sulphates.

is there any reason you’d use CRS instead of some combination of acid plus gypsum and other salts?

 

[strange-steve]

Looking at CRS on home brew shops, they all say it affects chlorides and sulphates

Correct, it's a blend of hydrochloric and sulphuric acids, and they will add chloride and sulphate respectively.

is there any reason you’d use CRS instead of some combination of acid plus gypsum and other salts?

Simplicity. Using separate hydrochloric and/or sulphuric acid would certainly give you more control over your water profile, but that's a bit too advanced for this beginners guide

 

[marshbrewer]

Are you not a fan of using phosphoric acid, then @strange-steve ? I was planning on switching to it once my CRS was used up because I have to use a lot in my hard water and don't want the minerals it adds.

 

[strange-steve]

Are you not a fan of using phosphoric acid, then @strange-steve ? I was planning on switching to it once my CRS was used up because I have to use a lot in my hard water and don't want the minerals it adds.

Honestly I have no experience with phosphoric acid at all. Plenty of people use it, especially our friends across the pond, however one of the known issues with it (although I think Mr Brungard might disagree with this) is that it causes a reduction in calcium, through precipitation of tricalcium phosphate, especially if used in large amounts.

 

[Clint]

I've been following "basic" treatment as suggested in the start of this thread and would like to try targeting a specific profile that sometimes gets posted with a recipe.
I've tried a couple of calculators but keep getting confused with it all.
I don't have some values for my water... magnesium being one.
I do have...
91 alkalinity (tested)
75 calcium (tested)
14 chloride
33 sulphate
9.9 sodium
17.8 calcium carbonate
7.48 pH
Thanks

 

[strange-steve]

If you know the total hardness as CaCO3 (which should be on your water report) then you can work out magnesium:

TH = (2.5 * calcium) + (4.1 * magnesium)

Rearrange for magnesium to give:

Mg = (TH - 187.5) / 4.1

 

[Clint]

Yes,I think I've got that value ... I'll have a look when my eyes are working!

 

[Lee Brown]

I m not sure if this make sense based on my Murphy's readings, but I just di a Salifert Alkalinity test. Mine came out as 0.5 (7.7kdh). Which should mea that I have an alkalinity of 7.7 x 17.9 = 137.83.

Is this right?

 

[strange-steve]

I m not sure if this make sense based on my Murphy's readings, but I just di a Salifert Alkalinity test. Mine came out as 0.5 (7.7kdh). Which should mea that I have an alkalinity of 7.7 x 17.9 = 137.83.

Is this right?

Assuming you've carried out the test correctly (which I'm sure you have ) then yeah, alkalinity of 138 ppm
Out of curiosity, do you have a calcium test kit?

 

[Clint]

CaC03... I have "hardness Clark" of 5.41.
Or...17.8 ppm.
Further down my scribblings I have multiplied this by 1.22...i can't remember why though!
Help!!

 

[Lee Brown]

Assuming you've carried out the test correctly (which I'm sure you have ) then yeah, alkalinity of 138 ppm
Out of curiosity, do you have a calcium test kit?

No. But now I am thinking of getting one.

 

[strange-steve]

CaC03... I have "hardness Clark" of 5.41.
Or...17.8 ppm.
Further down my scribblings I have multiplied this by 1.22...i can't remember why though!
Help!!

Yeah there's something up there. Hardness of 5.41 clark is equal to 77.4 ppm as CaCO3, but if you have 75ppm calcium then that gives TH of 188 even before you count magnesium
It's stuff like this that requires an actual expert (rather than an idiot who's done some reading ), so perhaps you should give @Argentum a shout.

 

[Lee Brown]

I am wondering if this reading of alkalinity is different to the alkalinity as CaCo3 (367) as reported by Murphy's and also Total Hardness as CaC03 (281). Is this a PH reading at 7.7kdh from kit? I will run test again another day, but there doesn't seem to be any amount on the readings that'd get me to either of those readings from Murphy's. However, it isn't too far from their PH report 7.04.

Yours confused as hell...

 

[Argentum]

Yeah there's something up there. Hardness of 5.41 clark is equal to 77.4 ppm as CaCO3, but if you have 75ppm calcium then that gives TH of 188 even before you count magnesium
It's stuff like this that requires an actual expert (rather than an idiot who's done some reading ), so perhaps you should give @Argentum a shout.

I'm certainly not an expert. That said: What is the question?