Realalemonster
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Sorry if this has been asked previously (33 pages of posts is a lot to trawl through), but can I use Ph papers to give a rough guide to my alkalinity?
Beginners Guide to Water Treatment (plus links to more advanced water treatment in post #1)
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strange-steve
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Nope I'm afraid not. Alkalinity isn't the same as pH, it's a measurement of buffering capacity rather than hydrogen ions.
Realalemonster
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Had a feeling it wasn't that easy!
Has anyone requested a report from Scottish Water, and if so, how?
All I can find on the website is how to make a complaint or report a service problem...
All I can find on the website is how to make a complaint or report a service problem...
I have mate, I don't think that gives me any meaningful information? Same with the detailed report that it links to... Trying to tie up names of parameters or units of measurement to required information on the water chemistry calculator seems impossible.
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Use tablets like these?
https://www.ukpoolstore.co.uk/acatalog/Lovibond_Calcium_Hardness___Total_Alkalinity_Tablets.html
Lovibond Calcium Hardness & Total Alkalinity Tablets
Calcium Hardness tablets - 250 tablets to be used in conjuction with the 50ml or 100ml shaker bottles. These tablets measure calcium hardness as mg/l - simply add one tablet to your sample, stopper and shake to disintigrate tablet. Repeat unitl pink colour changes to violet.
Calcium Hardness can then be calculated as:
50ml sample container = number of tablets added multiplied by 40 then minus 20 to give you your Calcium Hardness reading. i.e. 6 tablets added, so (6 x 40) - 20 = 220 mg/l
100ml sample container = number of tablets added multiplied by 20 then minus 10 to give you your Calcium Hardness reading. i.e. 11 tablets added, so (11 x 20) - 10 = 210 mg/l
As you can see from the above examples it is more tablet efficient to use a 50ml stoppered sample of water for testing.
Total Alkalinity - 250 Tablets - Add one tablet to sample in a stoppered container. Shake to disintegrate tablet. Repeat until yellow colour changes to bright red.
Total Alkalinity can then be calculated as:
50ml sample container = number of tablets added multiplied by 40 then minus 20 to give you your Total Alkalinity reading. i.e. 6 tablets added, so (6 x 40) - 20 = 220 mg/l
100ml sample container = number of tablets added multiplied by 20 then minus 10 to give you your Total Alkalinity reading. i.e. 11 tablets added, so (11 x 20) - 10 = 210 mg/l
As you can see from the above examples it is more tablet efficient to use a 50ml stoppered sample of water for testing.
What is Calcium Hardness?
Most of the hardness of your water supply is dissolved Calcium salts due to the water having arisen in Chalk or Limestone areas. Magnesium salts also tend to be grouped with Calcium in this description. Some hardness is good for your pool otherwise Calcium from sources such as tile grout will be dissolved. Conversely, too much causes scaling problems.
Calcium hungry?
If water is very soft i.e. it contains little dissolved Calcium from a hard water source, it will then dissolve Calcium from other sources such as concrete and tile grout. The use of Calcium Chloride (Water Hardness Increase) will counteract this, as may the use of Calcium Hypochlorite as a sanitiser
What is Total Alkalinity?
This is a measure of all the alkaline materials in the pool water. In the pH range found in pool waters, the alkalinity is likely to be present in the form of Sodium Bicarbonate. At the correct level, the pH will not alter rapidly as the water is said to be buffered. If the total alkalinity is below 80 p.p.m. then the water will be insufficiently buffered and if it is above 200 p.p.m it will be excessively buffered. In either case the effect of the addition of chemicals will be difficult to control.
https://www.ukpoolstore.co.uk/acatalog/Lovibond_Calcium_Hardness___Total_Alkalinity_Tablets.html
Lovibond Calcium Hardness & Total Alkalinity Tablets
Calcium Hardness tablets - 250 tablets to be used in conjuction with the 50ml or 100ml shaker bottles. These tablets measure calcium hardness as mg/l - simply add one tablet to your sample, stopper and shake to disintigrate tablet. Repeat unitl pink colour changes to violet.
Calcium Hardness can then be calculated as:
50ml sample container = number of tablets added multiplied by 40 then minus 20 to give you your Calcium Hardness reading. i.e. 6 tablets added, so (6 x 40) - 20 = 220 mg/l
100ml sample container = number of tablets added multiplied by 20 then minus 10 to give you your Calcium Hardness reading. i.e. 11 tablets added, so (11 x 20) - 10 = 210 mg/l
As you can see from the above examples it is more tablet efficient to use a 50ml stoppered sample of water for testing.
Total Alkalinity - 250 Tablets - Add one tablet to sample in a stoppered container. Shake to disintegrate tablet. Repeat until yellow colour changes to bright red.
Total Alkalinity can then be calculated as:
50ml sample container = number of tablets added multiplied by 40 then minus 20 to give you your Total Alkalinity reading. i.e. 6 tablets added, so (6 x 40) - 20 = 220 mg/l
100ml sample container = number of tablets added multiplied by 20 then minus 10 to give you your Total Alkalinity reading. i.e. 11 tablets added, so (11 x 20) - 10 = 210 mg/l
As you can see from the above examples it is more tablet efficient to use a 50ml stoppered sample of water for testing.
What is Calcium Hardness?
Most of the hardness of your water supply is dissolved Calcium salts due to the water having arisen in Chalk or Limestone areas. Magnesium salts also tend to be grouped with Calcium in this description. Some hardness is good for your pool otherwise Calcium from sources such as tile grout will be dissolved. Conversely, too much causes scaling problems.
Calcium hungry?
If water is very soft i.e. it contains little dissolved Calcium from a hard water source, it will then dissolve Calcium from other sources such as concrete and tile grout. The use of Calcium Chloride (Water Hardness Increase) will counteract this, as may the use of Calcium Hypochlorite as a sanitiser
What is Total Alkalinity?
This is a measure of all the alkaline materials in the pool water. In the pH range found in pool waters, the alkalinity is likely to be present in the form of Sodium Bicarbonate. At the correct level, the pH will not alter rapidly as the water is said to be buffered. If the total alkalinity is below 80 p.p.m. then the water will be insufficiently buffered and if it is above 200 p.p.m it will be excessively buffered. In either case the effect of the addition of chemicals will be difficult to control.
EH530RD.
It tells me about turbidity and E Coli, nothing about anything useful to a brewer (I don't think)...
Your local supply comes from Marchbank A. Look at this table and scroll down to Marchbank A. It's all there.
https://www.scottishwater.co.uk/en/...ions/Water-Quality/150419HardnessData2018.pdf
https://www.scottishwater.co.uk/en/...ions/Water-Quality/150419HardnessData2018.pdf
I completely missed that, thank you :)
Few more questions for you @strange-steve as I want to move away from plastic bottled water.....
1. I've got the KH & Ca test kits on order. Regarding Sulphate & Chloride content, I found the water report for my area (attached) - Chloride is near the start of pg.1 (42.25mg/L, measured at customer taps) whereas Sulphate is near the end of pg.3 (40.02mg/L, measured at supply points apparently). Are these the values I should use? Presumably I'd take the mean values, I'm just confused that the two values seem to come from separate tests.
2. I have a water softener though I can't find any clear information as to what's coming out of it in terms of the mineral content we're interested in. Any idea if this is likely to have any benefits in terms of brewing? I've got a feeling actually that one thing it does is remove the calcium we're usually trying to increase! I can bypass the softener anyway so not an issue if normal mains water is preferable.
Cheers,
Matt
1. I've got the KH & Ca test kits on order. Regarding Sulphate & Chloride content, I found the water report for my area (attached) - Chloride is near the start of pg.1 (42.25mg/L, measured at customer taps) whereas Sulphate is near the end of pg.3 (40.02mg/L, measured at supply points apparently). Are these the values I should use? Presumably I'd take the mean values, I'm just confused that the two values seem to come from separate tests.
2. I have a water softener though I can't find any clear information as to what's coming out of it in terms of the mineral content we're interested in. Any idea if this is likely to have any benefits in terms of brewing? I've got a feeling actually that one thing it does is remove the calcium we're usually trying to increase! I can bypass the softener anyway so not an issue if normal mains water is preferable.
Cheers,
Matt
strange-steve
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Hi Matt,
1. Yes use those mean values for chloride and sulphate, not sure why they are tested at different points but it's the same supply so won't matter.
2. Definitely bypass the softener for your brewing water. You're right that it removes calcium (and magnesium) which you want, it also replaces it with sodium which you don't really want (at least not in large amounts). It's one of those misconceptions about brewing that won't go away that hard water is bad. It's not, hard water is actually good for beer.
I notice your report also has calcium listed which is a little unusual, I think most companies don't bother testing for this. But I would still test it for yourself, just to confirm if nothing else. It's listed as 118 ppm which isn't too bad as is, but don't be afraid to bump this up in order to increase sulphate and/or chloride levels.
1. Yes use those mean values for chloride and sulphate, not sure why they are tested at different points but it's the same supply so won't matter.
2. Definitely bypass the softener for your brewing water. You're right that it removes calcium (and magnesium) which you want, it also replaces it with sodium which you don't really want (at least not in large amounts). It's one of those misconceptions about brewing that won't go away that hard water is bad. It's not, hard water is actually good for beer.
I notice your report also has calcium listed which is a little unusual, I think most companies don't bother testing for this. But I would still test it for yourself, just to confirm if nothing else. It's listed as 118 ppm which isn't too bad as is, but don't be afraid to bump this up in order to increase sulphate and/or chloride levels.
Couple more questions for you @strange-steve
1. An I right in thinking that as long as calcium is >100ppm but less then about 200-250 then we don't really care too much about the exact number? I'm looking at adding a few grams of gypsum to get the desired SO4:Cl ratio, but obviously that also impacts on calcium.
2. I've no HLT, I just heat my water in 2 x 2L electric kettles. I generally just add my gypsum etc to the first kettle but I don't think that'll cut it for chlorine removal and campden tablets if I switch from bottled to tap water. Can I just add, say, a quarter campden tablet to each 2L of water as I heat it? Any better/simpler suggestions?
Cheers,
Matt
1. An I right in thinking that as long as calcium is >100ppm but less then about 200-250 then we don't really care too much about the exact number? I'm looking at adding a few grams of gypsum to get the desired SO4:Cl ratio, but obviously that also impacts on calcium.
2. I've no HLT, I just heat my water in 2 x 2L electric kettles. I generally just add my gypsum etc to the first kettle but I don't think that'll cut it for chlorine removal and campden tablets if I switch from bottled to tap water. Can I just add, say, a quarter campden tablet to each 2L of water as I heat it? Any better/simpler suggestions?
Cheers,
Matt
strange-steve
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1. Essentially yes, you want to ensure there's enough calcium. Exactly what constitutes "enough" is a matter of some debate but 100ppm+ seems to be a decent rule of 
As for the upper limit, honestly I don't really know but the figures you suggested seem reasonable to me.
2. Yes that'll work fine, although a quarter tablet is overkill in 2L, if you split a quarter between the two kettles it would be plenty.
As for the upper limit, honestly I don't really know but the figures you suggested seem reasonable to me.2. Yes that'll work fine, although a quarter tablet is overkill in 2L, if you split a quarter between the two kettles it would be plenty.
Have a look at this thread. It's got helpful suggestions by style including NEIPA.
You will need lots of calcium Chloride if you want to get anywhere near a soft and rounded water profile. Gypsum wont help you.
Personally a good starting point would be to aim for 10-20ppm Sulphate and 150-180pp Chloride and 50-100ppm Calcium as a starting point. Then based on your grist you can brew, try, assess and then repeat. There are so many factors involved and that affect mouthfeel. And that is why NEIPA is the HARDEST style to get right. Only trial and error will get you there.
Lee Brown
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I have been following this forum for a while, whilst I toyed with the idea of treating my brewing water. Thanks to you guys, I have taken the plunge and paid for a Murphy and Son water analysis. However, I thought this would clear everything up and I could just use online apps to work out additions. I am now more confused than ever, as they all seem to give different results back, and I could really use some guidance (please, Strange Steve!).
My results showed that I have water harder than Jason Statham crossed Iron Man. I am trying to make my own spreadsheet for a variety of styles that will mean I can simply use this guide each brew. On advice, I bought 75% Phosphoric Acid, Calcium Chloride flakes, Gypsum, Epsom Salts and Camden tablets.
Now, my water came out as:
Nitrate: 37.10ppm
Calcium: 107.17ppm
Sulphate: 13.52ppm
Chloride: 24.32ppm
Bicarbonate: 281ppm
Magnesium: 3.2ppm
Alkilinity (as CaC03): 367ppm
Total Hardness (as CaC03): 281ppm
PH: 7.04
Could anyone give me a little guidance on getting the right PH with Phosphoric Acid (75%)? How much should I use for a typical 15l mash and 16l sparge (total 31 litres)?
A friend who has brewed extensively calculates that I should use 26.89ml of phosphoric acid, 15.87g gypsum (s04) and 6.31g of CaCl flakes. It sounds like a lot of phosphoric acid to me, but this guy is very good. Does this sound about right? It should give a HC03 of 40, s04 of 400, and Cl of 200 and calcium of about 170 for a hoppy IPA beer.
I am trying to figure out not only how to enter my results on the online apps, but also how to compile a list of additions for styles. When I enter my readings, I get nothing like the additions suggested to me above. It's left me wondering where I am going wrong. The sort of chart I am trying to make, I have added to this post. Maybe I am just thick.
ANY HELP would be so, so appreciated.
My results showed that I have water harder than Jason Statham crossed Iron Man. I am trying to make my own spreadsheet for a variety of styles that will mean I can simply use this guide each brew. On advice, I bought 75% Phosphoric Acid, Calcium Chloride flakes, Gypsum, Epsom Salts and Camden tablets.
Now, my water came out as:
Nitrate: 37.10ppm
Calcium: 107.17ppm
Sulphate: 13.52ppm
Chloride: 24.32ppm
Bicarbonate: 281ppm
Magnesium: 3.2ppm
Alkilinity (as CaC03): 367ppm
Total Hardness (as CaC03): 281ppm
PH: 7.04
Could anyone give me a little guidance on getting the right PH with Phosphoric Acid (75%)? How much should I use for a typical 15l mash and 16l sparge (total 31 litres)?
A friend who has brewed extensively calculates that I should use 26.89ml of phosphoric acid, 15.87g gypsum (s04) and 6.31g of CaCl flakes. It sounds like a lot of phosphoric acid to me, but this guy is very good. Does this sound about right? It should give a HC03 of 40, s04 of 400, and Cl of 200 and calcium of about 170 for a hoppy IPA beer.
I am trying to figure out not only how to enter my results on the online apps, but also how to compile a list of additions for styles. When I enter my readings, I get nothing like the additions suggested to me above. It's left me wondering where I am going wrong. The sort of chart I am trying to make, I have added to this post. Maybe I am just thick.
ANY HELP would be so, so appreciated.
