Ban on new petrol and diesel cars in UK from 2030 under PM's green plan

[Benfleet Brewery]

This is interesting: Petrol or electric – which is actually greenest? | AutoTrader

In brief

• production of an electric car contributes 70% more emissions that an equivalent ICE vehicle.
• based on the EU and UK average balance of electricity produced from regular and renewables, the electric car produces just 15% fewer emissions over it’s lifetime compared to an equivalent ICE
• even if the electricity used to power it is from 100% renewables, it will only reduce lifetime emissions over ICE by 50%

 

[Chippy_Tea]

Greenpeace disagree -

Are electric cars really greener than petrol or diesel cars?

If you’ve ever felt confused about this question, you’re not alone. Stories about the (very real) problems with electric cars are sometimes used to argue in favour of the fossil-fuelled status quo. But the reality is that an electric car has about half the climate impact over its lifetime compared to an average EU car today.

In fact, rapidly switching from fossil fuelled cars and vans to electric vehicles is one of the most important things the government can do for the climate.

That’s because driving makes up a huge share of the UK’s carbon footprint. Right now, nearly four out of every five miles travelled in the UK happens in a car. For the past 60 years, we’ve been building our towns, cities and entire lives around widespread car ownership. And that won’t change overnight.

It’s important to reduce the need for cars by giving people a real alternative, or simply reducing the need to travel in the first place.

But to cut carbon fast enough to avoid the worst of climate change, we’re going to have to replace at least some fossil-fuelled cars with electric ones. Let’s take a look at how they compare.

https://www.greenpeace.org.uk/news/electric-cars-greener-petrol-cars/

 

[Chippy_Tea]

Greg Archer U.K director of transport and environment said on 5 live this morning (and i quote) -

"If you buy a new electric car today over its lifetime its emissions will be about a third of those of a conventional car"

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[EsterBanana]

What happens in a big accident tailback in the depths of winter when everyone has to use their batteries for heat and the entire motorway system turns into a giant car park of electric cars with dead batteries? 10, 15 hours sat in sub zero temperatures? No thanks!

I'm a public transport radical, I think it should be made free at point of use and transformed into a working system like they have in developed countries

 

[Chippy_Tea]

What happens in a big accident tailback in the depths of winter when everyone has to use their batteries for heat and the entire motorway system turns into a giant car park of electric cars with dead batteries? 10, 15 hours sat in sub zero temperatures? No thanks!

When was the last time any of us got stuck in a jam for 15 hours i can honestly say in my 40+ years of driving the longest i was stuck was 4 hours and that was only once.

How many petrol cars in this hypothetical 15 hour jam were going to fuel up at the next services so had little fuel in them, no fuel no heat!

Now to the facts, it says below over an hour at a standstill with the lights on, modulating the cabin temperature, streaming music and playing videos through screens in the back had only a small impact on energy usage - losing just 2 per cent capacity, or eight miles of range so as long as the battery isn't too low you have nothing to worry about, this is no different to those running round with little fuel in their cars.



What happens when you're stuck in a five-mile tailback in an electric car with less than a full battery charge?

It's a question consumer watchdog Which? has attempted to answer after it had received messages from its members concerned an EV's battery will be sapped if a driver is using the air-con, heated seats and other features in a traffic jam.

It found that over an hour at a standstill with the lights on, modulating the cabin temperature, streaming music and playing videos through screens in the back had only a small impact on energy usage - losing just 2 per cent capacity, or eight miles of range.

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money...lectric-cars-battery-drain-stuck-traffic.html

 

[EsterBanana]

I just did a simple search for longest traffic jams... plenty of results. I just picked the first couple.

Also from the article you linked to "However, Which? did point out that its controlled test was conducted on a summer’s day and warned that cold weather will have more of an affect on the car’s power usage."

 

[Chippy_Tea]

I just did a simple search for longest traffic jams... plenty of results. I just picked the first couple.

Also from the article you linked to "However, Which? did point out that its controlled test was conducted on a summer’s day and warned that cold weather will have more of an affect on the car’s power usage."

EV's are not perfect we all know that and if i owned one and was making a long motorway journey i may give carrying a couple of flasks of boiling water and extra warm clothing some thought and also i would make sure the battery didn't drop too low between charges.

 

[Galena]

Hydrogen

 

[Chippy_Tea]

Hydrogen

As has been said in many threads hydrogen cars have been around for 30 years yet battery is the way we are going the cynic in me wonders why if hydrogen is the way forward.

It takes a huge amount of electricity to make hydrogen and then you have the problem of it being stored in the cars, i don't think we will see hydrogen fuel stations and hydrogen cars for many many years trucks and trains maybe but i think electric is so far ahead they are going to struggle to get people to switch, one thing i am sure of is that i will be long gone by then.


Here is just one post from this thread.
https://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/...-2030-under-pms-green-plan.90990/post-1002642

 

[EsterBanana]

EV's are not perfect we all know that and if i owned one and was making a long motorway journey i may give carrying a couple of flasks of boiling water and extra warm clothing some thought and also i would make sure the battery didn't drop too low between charges.

I had a quick look around and there's lots of articles about it, people who have garages to keep their EV in will do better generally, questionable performance reports of anything between 20% and 50% less as soon as you hit sub zero temperatures. Silly things like parking in the sun helps, as does keeping the battery topped up. Driving faster draws more cold air in which will also affect performance, one article suggested driving slower and keeping off the highways when it's really cold

My neighbours have just bought a new EV, I will be very interested to see how they got on, where we live it is typically 4-6°C colder than in town in the depths of winter and we quite often get snowed in, which of course affects all kinds of vehicles.

The flasks and warm clothes is a damn fine idea no matter what vehicle you drive.

By 2030 the technology may have improved to the point where it's no longer an issue?

Interesting though, I have no horse in this race, I am just fascinated and curious. I have been careless, ha... I meant car-less, for over a decade and walk, cycle or use public transport almost exclusively, occasionally I get a lift somewhere. Rarely I will hire a vehicle, but I just don't enjoy it any more.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

Driving faster draws more cold air in which will also affect performance

Only if you leave the fresh air vents open i doubt air getting in through the door seals etc would make that much difference.

My neighbours have just bought a new EV, I will be very interested to see how they got on, where we live it is typically 4-6°C colder than in town in the depths of winter and we quite often get snowed in, which of course affects all kinds of vehicles.

I could quite happily own an EV now as my daily commute is probably less than 10 miles round trip and i don't do huge mileages at the weekend so one charge would last me for ages whatever the outside temperature, getting into a pre warmed and defrosted car in winter must be brilliant the down side for me is i live in a terraced street making charging overnight near impossible, i recently watched a video made by an EV owner in Scotland who lived in a block of flats he managed to keep it going fine by using public chargers (supermarkets etc) he got into a routine of topping up often for a short time each time, i think i would enjoy the challenge but we currently don't have enough chargers here.

 

[EsterBanana]

Only if you leave the fresh air vents open i doubt air getting in through the door seals etc would make that much difference.



I could quite happily own an EV now as my daily commute is probably less than 10 miles round trip and i don't do huge mileages at the weekend so one charge would last me for ages whatever the outside temperature, getting into a pre warmed and defrosted car in winter must be brilliant the down side for me is i live in a terraced street so i have no way of making sure i can park outside my home making charging overnight impossible, i recently watched a video made by an EV owner in Scotland who lived in a block of flats he managed to keep it going fine by using public chargers (supermarkets etc) he got into a routine of topping up often but for a short time i think i would enjoy the challenge but we currently don't have enough chargers here.

Apologies, I wasn't clear, the cold air being drawn in over the batteries - not the inside of the car!!

I'm having flashbacks of people running their motors outside their houses for half an hour on cold winters days

Like all new technology the early-adopters are always going to have more of a challenging time. Sounds like you could do quite well with one though, 10 mile round trip is hardly anything. The access to your own charging point on a terraced street is hilarious, I hadn't thought about that. My friend says where they live, they have to get a permit for visitors to park in their street from the council it's that bad! I still think he's pulling my leg!

Remember Bread and the traffic cones outside their house?

 

[Chippy_Tea]

Sounds like you could do quite well with one though, 10 mile round trip is hardly anything. The access to your own charging point on a terraced street is hilarious,

One EV owner here must have decent neighbours as he always seems to get a park outside his house he uses on of these on the pavement to stop people tripping over the cable, not ideal but it works for him.

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[Cwrw666]

Oooo - speed bumps for wheelchairs.

 

[EsterBanana]

...and grandmas on shopping trollies!

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I could quite happily own an EV now as my daily commute is probably less than 10 miles round trip and i don't do huge mileages at the weekend so one charge would last me for ages whatever the outside temperature, getting into a pre warmed and defrosted car in winter must be brilliant the down side for me is i live in a terraced street making charging overnight near impossible

Obviously it's going to be a lot easier for the 2/3 of the population who do have off-road parking. But there will be alternatives - like Zipcharge, a suitcase-sized battery that can be wheeled to the car for 20 miles of charge :
https://www.driving.co.uk/news/business/zipcharge-portable-ev-charger-unveiled-cop26/
Won't work for many people unless the car can take on charge whilst you're driving, but it will for some.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

Won't work for many people unless the car can take on charge whilst you're driving, but it will for some.

I think we will see a lot more charging options as EV's become more popular we don't have any of the on street chargers below but we do have the big machines in the car parks.

Note the yellow lines in the first picture

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[Chippy_Tea]

I like this -

 

[Chippy_Tea]

I can see a few trip claims going in if this becomes the norm.

 

[Irishwizard]

As has been said in many threads hydrogen cars have been around for 30 years yet battery is the way we are going the cynic in me wonders why if hydrogen is the way forward.

It takes a huge amount of electricity to make hydrogen and then you have the problem of it being stored in the cars, i don't think we will see hydrogen fuel stations and hydrogen cars for many many years trucks and trains maybe but i think electric is so far ahead they are going to struggle to get people to switch, one thing i am sure of is that i will be long gone by then.


Here is just one post from this thread.
https://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/...-2030-under-pms-green-plan.90990/post-1002642

To be fair there is a hydrogen pump at a service station on the M25 and its been there for at least 5 years. Its a good place to meet people there because you know it will be empty - often use it for such purposes