Ban on new petrol and diesel cars in UK from 2030 under PM's green plan

[EsterBanana]

I can see a few trip claims going in if this becomes the norm.


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Get some rope skipping in while you charge?

EV battery disposal - how does that work, does anyone know?

I can't help but think of my phone and computer batteries, great for the first year or two, but then they slow start to deteriorate depending on how I happen to treat them. Maybe it's different technology and EV batteries don't suffer the same problems or are repairable/maintainable somehow? Also, I can see people wanting to upgrade their batteries as the tech gets better, what happens to the old ones?

I also thought about the heating thing, do EVs actually generate any heat that is any way comparable to the heat coming from a regular engine?

Finally, because I really don't want to be a downer on them at all, I do fully approve of the removal of exhaust pipes and the fumes that come from them, that has to be a huge benefit. I have polluted this planet too by driving, so not judging, but the poisonous fumes cars pump out really are absolutely vile!

 

[Benfleet Brewery]

Yes. It’s very easy to get dragged in and only worry about the greenhouse gas emissions and the effect they have when there are far more poisonous substances being pumped into the air we breath.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

An EV battery has a second life after 100,000 to 200,000 plus miles on the road…

“An EV battery has a second life after 100,000 to 200,000 plus miles on the road,” explains Graeme. “There’s still residual life in the viable battery, so it can be hung on the back wall of your garage or in the cupboard under the stairs as a static battery energy storage system, if you have a renewable energy source like solar panels.”
This EV battery second stage usefulness, when paired with renewable energy, means people can save on bills and increase their use of clean energy, when sunlight is reduced.
A green cycle for EV batteries?
Aside from energy storage in your home or workplace, on a larger scale former EV batteries can be used to power manufacturing plants and streets. In a virtuous energy cycle, eventually the factories that produce the batteries could be powered using the repurposed batteries.
Electric vehicle manufacturers are making big investments to give car batteries a new lease of life in large-scale battery storage systems.
Nissan is using retired EV batteries to provide back-up power to the Amsterdam Arena – the entertainment centre and home to Ajax Football Club.
Toyota will be installing ex-EV batteries outside convenience stores in Japan. The batteries will be used to store power generated from solar panels. The energy stored will then be used to support the power of drink fridges, food warmers and fresh food counters inside stores.
Renault has also announced that the EV batteries from the Renault Zoe EV will be repurposed to generate power to the Powervault – a home energy battery storage system. And Nissan has launched XStorage, using Nissan Leaf car batteries as storage systems for homes and businesses.

https://www.nationalgrid.com/storie...ories/what-happens-old-electric-car-batteries

 

[Duxuk]

Tesla admit that if you fully charge and fully discharge their batteries you get 300 cycles before they get down to 80% capacity. If a car does 250 miles per charge that's 75,000 miles but in normal use, not tests, mileages are significantly less. If you rapid charge then good luck. You'll toast the batteries in a much shorter period.
It takes a while to lose the first 20% of capacity but after that the next 20% will die much more quickly so long term use is not viable. In addition age is a second factor to add to useage. Even if you don't use the battery hard time will still deplete it's capacity.
Recycling of batteries is not viable. It's far cheaper to buy new.
The energy consumed to make batteries is reflected in their price. For the price of a £12,000 battery pack my Jaguar could drive 80,000 miles, using no electricity.
I've owned 2 EVs and have a good knowledge of battery tech.
If I want to tour the west coast of Scotland in the summer of 2031 will there be sufficient charging points for my electric car?
I believe that battery electric cars are a side shoot, not the solution to personal transportation. Hydrogen looks like a far better option but we'd need a lot of nuclear whilst there are still enough uranium deposits.
BTW the laptop I'm typing on has Tesla batteries! They're 18650 cells, the cheapest mass produced cells you can get. Tesla have invented nothing. They're a marketing company, not a car company.

 

[AlBrew]

It takes a while to lose the first 20% of capacity but after that the next 20% will die much more quickly

This disagrees with your information on battery degradation, do you have a source for fast degradation over time claim?

https://electrek.co/2018/04/14/tesla-battery-degradation-data/
There are many other sources of similar data.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

Search auto trader for nissan leaf look at the oldest on there and look at the dial on the right of the dashboard on the right of this dial are 12 blocks this is the battery status guague you will not find many with less than 10.

 

[AlBrew]

I also thought about the heating thing, do EVs actually generate any heat that is any way comparable to the heat coming from a regular engine?

Yes, instant heat if from electric elements, just like turning on a hair dryer, new some newer ones have a heat pump, to shunt otherwise waste battery/motor heat around and be far more efficient, not sure how quick this heat appears when you turn it on though.

I've driven mine through 2 winters in the North East of England, I was expecting that this use of heat and the colder battery temps would have an effect but it wasn't noticeable at all. On my regular 200 mile round trip to the west coast I was still getting home with close to 100 miles remaining. No problem at all, best car I've ever owned, in a long history of very varied, very nice, company cars over the past 30 years.

 

[EsterBanana]

Yes, instant heat if from electric elements, just like turning on a hair dryer, new some newer ones have a heat pump, to shunt otherwise waste battery/motor heat around and be far more efficient, not sure how quick this heat appears when you turn it on though.

I've driven mine through 2 winters in the North East of England, I was expecting that this use of heat and the colder battery temps would have an effect but it wasn't noticeable at all. On my regular 200 mile round trip to the west coast I was still getting home with close to 100 miles remaining. No problem at all, best car I've ever owned, in a long history of very varied, very nice, company cars over the past 30 years.

Wow, that's impressive, really good to hear actual real world usage story instead of fluffy data. Thanks for sharing.

Scientists these days often seem to have an agenda aligned with the corporations they are employed by, which makes a mockery of science, they don't even seem to bother hiding it that much any more either.

 

[Cwrw666]

Search auto trader for nissan leaf look at the oldest on there and look at the dial on the right of the dashboard on the right of this dial are 12 blocks this is the battery status guague you will not find many with less than 10.

I've seen a few with only 50% left, but they are really, really cheap because that's a terrible range on an old leaf.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

Nissan Leaf
2014 (14 reg)
24kWh Acenta Auto 5dr
£7,200

This is the cheapest Nissan Leaf EV that has not been in a crash on auto trader if you look at the readout on the right of the gauge there are 12 blocks the first two are red and the other 10 white this is the battery condition meter and you will be hard pushed to find one that is less than10, people get anxious about battery life but it wouldn't put me off buying second hand if i had somewhere to charge it overnight, unfortunate i don't.

This is a 24kWh model 30kWh versions are not much more.

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-de...t_cars&postcode=la129by&year-from=2011&page=1

 

[Chippy_Tea]

9 year review.

Nice to see the older Leafs still on the road.
In your case I suspect you've lost so much battery capacity because you often use High Voltage DC charging (HVDC/Rapid) and live where ambient temperatures are high.
Anytime battery core temperatures rise above 110F you're going to accelerate capacity loss especially with the earlier model Leafs.
Rapid charging (HVDC) significantly raises battery internal temperatures and doing this when ambient temperatures are already over 100F will put you in the red zone very quickly.
These batteries don't like to be charged during extreme summer temperatures (think Arizona during the Summer when daytime highs can easily exceed 105F).
If you're using an early model Leaf as a daily commuter then your daily drive is likely less than 30 or 40 miles. That's less than 10 kWh per day and can be easily replenished overnight on standard 120V Level 1 charging cable. If I lived where its typically hot then I'd wait for the evening then use Level 1 charging overnight.
Your battery will last much longer. Overnight charging on standard 120V should allow for 20 kWh of charge or about 80 miles of range.

 

[JockyBrewer]

The Nissan Leaf is famous for having bad batteries.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

Really, i have looked at many from 2012 on and haven't seen one with less than 10 bars (as stated in post #430) obviously some are going to be bad but on the whole they seem to be better than people imagine they would be at that age.

 

[BarnBrian]

Really, i have looked at many from 2012 on and haven't seen one with less than 10 bars (as stated in post #430) obviously some are going to be bad but on the whole they seem to be better than people imagine they would be at that age.

I've got a 3 year old leaf. Charge capacity so far is no different to when it was new. 35k on the clock.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

The Nissan Leaf is famous for having bad batteries.

To be more precise - the first-generation Leaf is famous for battery life problems, but they largely sorted it for the second generation in 2017, it's probably the only mainstream model where it's a significant issue (although there's always the possibility of individual cars being owned by idiots who can circumvent even idiot-proof charging protocols...). But as Chippy has found, significant capacity losses are rare even on first-gen Leaves.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

To be more precise - the first-generation Leaf is famous for battery life problems, but they largely sorted it for the second generation in 2017,

Spot on.
From my quick search it seems the original cars only had a 24kWh battery then there was a 30kWh option followed by 40kWh and 62kWh.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

 

[EsterBanana]

Cool!

Replacement battery costs are dropping too:

https://www.carsuk.net/cost-of-replacing-the-nissan-leafs-batteries-drops-90-in-seven-years/

 

[Chippy_Tea]

A couple of years ago i would not have considered an EV but i am now giving it some serious thought even though i don't have the means of charging at home, i recently watched a video of a guy that lives in a block of flats and he manged fine using public chargers.

 

[JockyBrewer]

To be more precise - the first-generation Leaf is famous for battery life problems, but they largely sorted it for the second generation in 2017, it's probably the only mainstream model where it's a significant issue (although there's always the possibility of individual cars being owned by idiots who can circumvent even idiot-proof charging protocols...). But as Chippy has found, significant capacity losses are rare even on first-gen Leaves.

Yes, I should have been a bit more precise in my original post.

The upside to a Leaf was that they had the best overall build quality and reliability of any EV in the first generation.