Another Water Profile Question

[UKSkydiver]

Hi folks
Can someone help / check my water profile please?

I've got some of this info from the Thames Water water report and some from using the Salifert kits (Alk and Ca)

So, by using the BrewFather help files here , this is what I've ended up with but there are some slight discrepancies.

Ca is 120ppm from my Salifert kit
Mg is 5.3ppm from the water report (average)
Na is 26ppm from the water report (average)
Cl is 38ppm from the water report (average)
SO4 is 72ppm from the water report (average)
HCO3 is 208ppm working out from Alk as CaCO3 on the water report (171 average) and multiplying (based on the help file) by 1.22


The discrepancies are the stats on the bottom line.

Not a clue what SO4/Cl ratio of 1.89 means (other than the ratio of Sulphate to Chloride being 1.89:1)

Hardness calculated on BrewFather is 321, yet on my water report (assuming the same units of measurement) is ~250 (Hardness - Total as CaCO3 mg/l)

Alkalinity calculated on BrewFather is 170, yet on my Salifert kit it comes out at 182ppm (close enough?)

And Residual Alkalinity is 82 - no idea what that means.

Further, the numbers next to the Anions and Cations changed from green to amber after I'd input my figures. That can't be a good thing can it? Better than red I s'pose.

Would some kind soul please check / verify and correct / explain as needed please?
Much appreciated.

 

[Fireside Ales Homebrewery]

There are some great books on water profiling on Amazon. I’ll try and remember the author.....

 

[Fireside Ales Homebrewery]

Hi folks
Can someone help / check my water profile please?

I've got some of this info from the Thames Water water report and some from using the Salifert kits (Alk and Ca)

So, by using the BrewFather help files here , this is what I've ended up with but there are some slight discrepancies.


View attachment 26191

Ca is 120ppm from my Salifert kit
Mg is 5.3ppm from the water report (average)
Na is 26ppm from the water report (average)
Cl is 38ppm from the water report (average)
SO4 is 72ppm from the water report (average)
HCO3 is 208ppm working out from Alk as CaCO3 on the water report (171 average) and multiplying (based on the help file) by 1.22


The discrepancies are the stats on the bottom line.

Not a clue what SO4/Cl ratio of 1.89 means (other than the ratio of Sulphate to Chloride being 1.89:1)

Hardness calculated on BrewFather is 321, yet on my water report (assuming the same units of measurement) is ~250 (Hardness - Total as CaCO3 mg/l)

Alkalinity calculated on BrewFather is 170, yet on my Salifert kit it comes out at 182ppm (close enough?)

And Residual Alkalinity is 82 - no idea what that means.

Further, the numbers next to the Anions and Cations changed from green to amber after I'd input my figures. That can't be a good thing can it? Better than red I s'pose.

Would some kind soul please check / verify and correct / explain as needed please?
Much appreciated.

Try this book, great information...

 

[strange-steve]

Not a clue what SO4/Cl ratio of 1.89 means (other than the ratio of Sulphate to Chloride being 1.89:1)

Sulphate to chloride ratio is a value that is often manipulated in order to favour or enhance certain flavour characteristics of the beer. Higher ratios (around 2 - 4) are commonly used for hoppy/bitter beers, lower ratios (<1) commonly used for malty beers. Opinions are divided on whether the ratio is more important than the total concentration of sulphate and chloride, but I suspect that both play a part.

Hardness calculated on BrewFather is 321, yet on my water report (assuming the same units of measurement) is ~250 (Hardness - Total as CaCO3 mg/l)

Hardness is calculated using calcium and magnesium values, if your report states hardness of 250 then it will be using a calcium value of about 90 ppm (assuming 5.3 ppm of magnesium). That's not really anything to worry about, use your salifert results for calcium.

Alkalinity calculated on BrewFather is 170, yet on my Salifert kit it comes out at 182ppm (close enough?)

Again not an issue, use your salifert tested alkalinity value rather than the averaged value from the report.

And Residual Alkalinity is 82 - no idea what that means.

It's a calculation of the theoretical alkalinity of the water after subtraction of the alkalinity-countering effect of calcium and magnesium in the mash, but I would suggest you don't worry about this.

Further, the numbers next to the Anions and Cations changed from green to amber after I'd input my figures. That can't be a good thing can it? Better than red I s'pose.

I don't use that software but I'm guessing that means there's an ionic imbalance. This will be due to the averaged values from the report and small measurement errors. Don't worry too much about that.

 

[Fireside Ales Homebrewery]

Sulphate to chloride ratio is a value that is often manipulated in order to favour or enhance certain flavour characteristics of the beer. Higher ratios (around 2 - 4) are commonly used for hoppy/bitter beers, lower ratios (<1) commonly used for malty beers. Opinions are divided on whether the ratio is more important than the total concentration of sulphate and chloride, but I suspect that both play a part.

Hardness is calculated using calcium and magnesium values, if your report states hardness of 250 then it will be using a calcium value of about 90 ppm (assuming 5.3 ppm of magnesium). That's not really anything to worry about, use your salifert results for calcium.

Again not an issue, use your salifert tested alkalinity value rather than the averaged value from the report.

It's a calculation of the theoretical alkalinity of the water after subtraction of the alkalinity-countering effect of calcium and magnesium in the mash, but I would suggest you don't worry about this.

I don't use that software but I'm guessing that means there's an ionic imbalance. This will be due to the averaged values from the report and small measurement errors. Don't worry too much about that.

The question I have is, does this knowledge really make a difference to your brewing at a homebrew level? Do you really need to dig into this level of technical knowledge to brew good beer? At least at a non commercial level. I am always seeking new knowledge and love to dig into the intricate stuff. But is it really necessary?

 

[PhilBrew]

Hi FAH

The question I have is, does this knowledge really make a difference to your brewing at a homebrew level? Do you really need to dig into this level of technical knowledge to brew good beer? At least at a non commercial level. I am always seeking new knowledge and love to dig into the intricate stuff. But is it really necessary?

... that seems an unusual question from someone who previously felt sufficiently convinced and well informed about a topic (in this very thread) to recommend a book on the subject

Was it reading that book that led you to this questioning?

Cheers, PhilB

 

[Clint]

To me it's like a jigsaw ..that changes in complexity as the hobby grows.
No matter what my interest is I have to understand it on more than the basic level...then get obsessed by it.
As for water I think if you have any issues and you're confident your cleaning and sanitising is spot on then it's a good place to start as not all tap water is good for beer making as it is.
I do very basic water treatment...I have additions for pale,amber,brown and black beer that only have quite small amounts of CRS,gypsum or bicarb required. I'm happy with what I'm doing for now but also ready to look further into it as too much info all at once can be confusing.
So...if you're happy with your water leave it...if it's rank just try some simple stuff. Even the very easy like Camden addition is water treatment that can change how your beer turns out.

 

[strange-steve]

does this knowledge really make a difference to your brewing at a homebrew level? Do you really need to dig into this level of technical knowledge to brew good beer?

There's a bloke on another forum who's signature says: "brewing a good beer is relatively simple, knowing what makes it good is very much harder", and in line with that my answers to those questions are yes and no respectively.

Do you need to understand the chemical processes involved in chlorophenol production to know why campden tablets are used?
Do you need to understand the complexities of pH buffering and malt acidity to know why alkalinity matters?
Do you need to understand calcium phosphate reactions and yeast metabolism to know why calcium matters?
Do you need to understand the chemistry of enzyme temperature ranges to know why mash temperature matters?
Or what about a technical understanding of wort oxygenation, beer oxidation, yeast cell counts, skunking, tannin solubility, alpha-acid isomerisation, hop-oil volatility, to name just a few very complex chemical and biochemical processes involved in brewing?

The answer to all of these is no, you don't need to understand anything but the basics of these things to make good beer. But a better understanding must give you more scope for manipulation of the variables at least, and for some of us we enjoy this hobby, not just because we get beer from it, but because it's an endlessly fascinating and complex subject and the rabbit hole goes as deep as you would like it to.

If you're asking where the line is, where's the balancing point between required and superfluous knowledge then I don't know, but in my opinion you're never better off for not understanding something.

 

[Fireside Ales Homebrewery]

Hi FAH
... that seems an unusual question from someone who previously felt sufficiently convinced and well informed about a topic (in this very thread) to recommend a book on the subject

Was it reading that book that led you to this questioning?

Cheers, PhilB

I have enough of an understanding of the topic, through internet research and various readings, to form an opinion and recommend this book. This book goes into great detail on the subject at hand and comes highly recommend. I thought it might be a useful source of literature for @UKSkydiver if he had not come across it before. As to my own line of questioning- it was not an attack, nor did it require an attack in response. I have hard water in my area and tend to brew withought changing my water profile. I was wondering, beyond my own research, in a forum of fellow brewers, whether any one has found that altering their water profile has had any major benefit. This Knowledge from the wider group might change what I do with my water. I know at a commercial level, brewery’s often alter there water profile depending on the style they are brewing. At home though, I have found that I tend to brew great interpretations of each style without these alterations. Hence my question....

 

[Fireside Ales Homebrewery]

There's a bloke on another forum who's signature says: "brewing a good beer is relatively simple, knowing what makes it good is very much harder", and in line with that my answers to those questions are yes and no respectively.

Do you need to understand the chemical processes involved in chlorophenol production to know why campden tablets are used?
Do you need to understand the complexities of pH buffering and malt acidity to know why alkalinity matters?
Do you need to understand calcium phosphate reactions and yeast metabolism to know why calcium matters?
Do you need to understand the chemistry of enzyme temperature ranges to know why mash temperature matters?
Or what about a technical understanding of wort oxygenation, beer oxidation, yeast cell counts, skunking, tannin solubility, alpha-acid isomerisation, hop-oil volatility, to name just a few very complex chemical and biochemical processes involved in brewing?

The answer to all of these is no, you don't need to understand anything but the basics of these things to make good beer. But a better understanding must give you more scope for manipulation of the variables at least, and for some of us we enjoy this hobby, not just because we get beer from it, but because it's an endlessly fascinating and complex subject and the rabbit hole goes as deep as you would like it to.

If you're asking where the line is, where's the balancing point between required and superfluous knowledge then I don't know, but in my opinion you're never better off for not understanding something.

I 100 percent agree with you. I would certainly consider myself to be a person who brews for the wider craft and not simply to have 5 gallons of alcohol on tap. I myself am with you in the hunger for the richer knowledge, hence my joining this forum and hours of reading etc.
The question was simply to gain further knowledge that might improve or benefit my own brewing or someone else's. I know that there are brewers of all levels on this forum. Maybe somebody always alters there water profile and swears by it. This knowledge might push me to experiment further with water treatment.

 

[strange-steve]

The question was simply to gain further knowledge that might improve or benefit my own brewing or someone else's. I know that there are brewers of all levels on this forum. Maybe somebody always alters there water profile and swears by it.

There are lots of us here who always treat our water and I for one can assure you that it has improved my beers. If you have any more specific questions then feel free to ask.

 

[Fireside Ales Homebrewery]

There are lots of us here who always treat our water and I for one can assure you that it has improved my beers. If you have any more specific questions then feel free to ask.

Thanks,
I might have a bit of an experiment over the next few brews.

 

[Thatscold]

Do commercial breweries treat their water? I live about a mile from Siren Craft brewery so I presume my tap water is pretty much the same as theirs - I'm due to do the tour there once they are back open so I will ask them when I get the chance....

 

[PhilBrew]

As to my own line of questioning- it was not an attack, nor did it require an attack in response.

... was my response an attack? I don't think so ... the OP has asked for some advice, you've given some advice, but then come back and apparently questioned your own advice ... so I questioned you, trying to gain some understanding of the source of your (apparent) self-doubt. To find out what you were REALLY asking ... had the book given you the impression that you shouldn't bother? Had you tried one/some of the techniques for water adjustment in the book and found no improvement? What?

I was wondering ... whether any one has found that altering their water profile has had any major benefit

... and now you've asked that question, we can understand what you were getting at ... and I see Steve has answered it, and I agree with his answer FWIW.

Cheers, PhilB

 

[Fireside Ales Homebrewery]

Do commercial breweries treat their water? I live about a mile from Siren Craft brewery so I presume my tap water is pretty much the same as theirs - I'm due to do the tour there once they are back open so I will ask them when I get the chance....

Hi,
I believe that some do. From the reading that I have done, I have found that In order to effectively re-create some beer styles, you need to recreate the water profile that is best suited to that style. Here is a website that seems to explain it well. Though @strange-steve did a great post on water treatment on this forum. From web- A Guide to Brewing Water Treatment | MoreBeer
Will be interesting to see what you find from your visit. Have fun.

 

[Hoddy]

Do commercial breweries treat their water? I live about a mile from Siren Craft brewery so I presume my tap water is pretty much the same as theirs - I'm due to do the tour there once they are back open so I will ask them when I get the chance....

I will absolutely GUARANTEE you that they treat there liquor in the mash, sparge and boil periods.

 

[Hoddy]

There are lots of us here who always treat our water and I for one can assure you that it has improved my beers. If you have any more specific questions then feel free to ask.

I will absolutely agree that treating your liquors through the brewing process makes a HUGE difference in beer quality you can make. But not that alone will make an outstanding beer that's better than macro beer.

As some others have intimated, there are so many facets to quality processes that enable you to produce great beer. LIke a big jigsaw puzzle. But the more pieces you have the clearer the picture you can see.

 

[strange-steve]

@Fireside Ales Homebrewery if you'd like some more advanced reading then this brewing science book is currently free to download: Brewing Science: A Multidisciplinary Approach | SpringerLink

 

[Fireside Ales Homebrewery]

@strange-steve,
Thank you for the link.
This looks like a great book.

 

[strange-steve]

@strange-steve,
Thank you for the link.
This looks like a great book.

And in case that's not enough reading for you have a look at the technical articles on Murphy's site: Technical Articles Archive - Murphy and Son